This is topic One Hand vs Two Answers in forum SASS Wire at The SASS Wire.
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Posted by BisleyJoe 29738 (Member # 9905) on March 23, 2004 08:13 PMMarch 23, 2004 08:13 PM:
I found a post: One Handed vs Two Handed that dealt with my article on pg 30 of the march ‘Chronicle. I was amazed at some of the folks accusing me of saying things I didn’t, and so figured to answer it here.
Bisley Joe
Isreal Precious Goldberg #34521 said:
“Just read the article in the CC about shooting one handed vs Two Handed. Requiring everyone to shoot one handed is a bad idea.”
Nowhere in the article is there any mention of requiring everyone to shoot one handed.
“this is a fun sport and should be fun for all, no manner how they shoot, as long as it is in the rules and done safely.”
A fun sport that is being twisted into a competition above all else. The choice, because of the “overall” category, is if you want to win shoot using modern methods, if you are shooting in any period manner don’t bother. Your statement below is in agreement with me.
“you may not be overall winner cause you are doing it the old west way, one handed but if you are having fun, then don't tell me how I should be having fun and that I am doing it all wrong. Let me have fun in my way, just as I will allow you to have fun in your way. After all this is ENTRTAINMENT not a way to make a living.”
I didn’t tell you how to have fun. Don’t you think people coming to this sport, a period sport, to shoot with modern tactics, weasel through the loopholes, and then openly say that if you want to win shoot their way, is wrong? Yes, this is SUPPOSED to be entertainment - with fun and camaraderie - but some of the folks seem to be making a living with their own shooting schools (teaching modern tactics to further pollute our sport), and the sponsors giving them guns. In other words, they’re going “pro” in a game that was designed to avoid all of that stuff.
Posted by Marauder SASS #13056
“Yup! One of the great things about Cowboy Shooting is that they have always had the various categories that encourage us to shoot either two-handed or Duelist.”
Marauder, what I’m getting at is that the Overall category can only be won using modern tactics. This category is representing (MIS-representing) our sport, and deteriorating it with the gamer mentality where winning justifies the means to get there. Some people are saying openly that if it isn’t forbidden in the rules then it’s ok. What ever happened to the Spirit of the Game?
“I am against any change that would require folks to shoot only one way.”
Good. So am I.
Posted by Billy Boots
“I too do not believe anyone should be required to shoot one-handed any more than I want to be forced to shoot two-handed.”
Ok. But the article isn’t condoning or insinuating forcing anyone to do anything.
“Two classes also makes a level playing field of two-handers separate to one-handers.”
Not in overall, which dominates and misrepresents our sport.
“Maybe it's just cabin fever that brings all this poop up around now - the season's ready to start here in N.E. and we can set out minds to what's important - havin' fun and bein' with our good pards!”
This is hardly “poop”, it is a very legitimate concern. We are losing the whole purpose of this pastime. I like being around friends and having fun too. However, I don’t like people coming in and using loopholes and unethical behavior to win at any cost and then tell me that I’M the one spoiling it. As far as important things, don’t you think that preserving the Spirit of the Game is important?
To :Elmo Rume
Our sport, while not based entirely on authenticity, requires a certain amount of guidelines to preserve the Spirit of the Game. A modern shooting tactic dominating a period sport is not right. Shooters who compete using period tactics being told to switch to modern tactics if they want to win is outrageous. True, “We don't require all shooters to use black powder, and we don't require all shooters to have bad teeth, ride a horse to the matches, or live on a dollar a day and found.” But we do require wearing a hat, the use of single actions, and many other things. We are talking about keeping the field fair and level. What people do outside of the matches is irrelevant. (Besides, a dollar was worth a lot more back then.)
Posted by Capt. Morgan Rum, SASS #6859
“we have no real way of knowing if people shot one handed or two handed.”
Come on now! There are plenty of illustrations, descriptions and, as you mentioned: shooting manuals show that one handed shooting was how it was done.
You say that “Military training manuals and old dueling guidelines specified one handed shooting but not everyone was schooled in formal shooting methods…”
Schooling is not the issue. One handed shooting was simply the norm - coming down from the old dueling days. The firearms were designed to be shot one handed. Shooting with both hands and cocking with the weak hand thumb was simply not done.
How is it that all the evidence showing one handed shooting, with the occasional second hand used for support in long distance shots only, is not enough proof, yet the complete absence of any evidence for two handed shooting for speed, using the offhand thumb to cock, is enough?
Posted by Hy O. Silver #18867
“I use 2 eyes, 2 ears, 2 legs and I also use 2 hands to shoot, always have, started doing it at a young age, didn't need a teacher, seemed the only natural, intellegent thing to do.”
One brain should tell you that anyone, especially a child or an inexperienced shooter, may shoot two handed if it’s a heavy gun or they’re weak/injured, but the old pistols of the West weren’t exactly heavy for a man (or even a woman) and, in addition, they were designed for one handed use. Dueling was done one handed using much longer pistols, of single shot I might add. Precision shots were MUCH more important then, yet using two hands was still not done. Come on now!
“I don't believe that cowboys or others of that time were all stupid, there must have been some smart enough to use 2 hands. If I'm going to pretend to be someone from the past I think I'd rather pretend to be one of the smart ones.”
Well, I guess everyone in the old West was pretty stupid then. Wild Bill used two hands for support of a long range shot, but he carried two Navy pistols: one for each hand.
I can see Wild Bill on the street now, holding one gun in both hands, cocking that Navy .36 with his off hand thumb like a gamer. Yep, “smart”. I suppose that, were you in medieval times, you would be one of the “smart ones” to wash your hands before surgery. If they ever make a time machine be sure to go back and tell Sam Colt how stupid he was for designing a pistol for one handed use.
Posted by Sundown Jim SASS 12313
“While there doesn't seem to be much valid info on exactly how old timers used their pistols,we can certainly apply common sense.”
There is plenty of valid info indeed. Look at the illustrations, the paintings, read the accounts, and yes, use common sense. You know very well that nobody shot using two handed/off hand thumb cocking or with the isosceles stance like a CQB team! Shooting with two hands, even for support, was rarely done, and then for a precision shot only.
“The very early pistols were almost certainly fired two handed. Look at them in photos and museums. There is no way a man could hold them up and shoot one-handed!”
“Almost certainly”?! Based on what? Maybe you mean hand cannons? Even the old wheel-lock pistols could be shot one handed! What pictures and museums are you looking at?!
“(and by the way, knights and men-at-arms mostly fought on foot, swinging their big swords two-handed)”
Knights most certainly did not fight on foot unless they were dismounted or their horse was killed. The horse was what gave a knight most of his power. The French word for knight (when the French still had spines) is chevalier, meaning horseman (cheval is “horse”) In Spanish a knight is a cavallero (cavallo is “horse”). Ever heard of a “cavalier”? Saying that a knight would choose to dismount to fight is like saying that an M1 Abrams crew will drive their tank to battle and dismount to fight with their rifles! For goodness sake man!!
And, by the way, knights used lances, axes, maces, flails, and swords of two, one, and one and a half hand sizes. They also used shields until about the 15th century, requiring the use of a one handed or one and a half handed sword, and they fought primarily on horseback. Big swords, like the Claymore used in Braveheart, weighed only about six pounds. Also, if the “common sense” adage is to be mentioned, one would assume that knights also used bows and arrows, seeing as it was safer to kill from a distance. Well, they did not, and considered it cowardly.
“early pistols and revolvers were all massive affairs that required the use of two hands to be effective. Early illustrators pictured them being used one-handed for two reasons: 1)It looks neat and 2)as they evolved and became smaller they tended, as they do today, to LOOK like they were meant to be shot one-handed.’
Ok, that makes absolutely no sense at all. “Massive affairs’? Really? Hmm, so men of the 18th century must have been midgets, as there are plenty of those firearms around and they are easily shot one handed. What about hatchets and clubs? All those paintings and illustrations of warriors wielding them in battle in one hand are bogus too I guess. Those weapons often weighed more than a gun and required A LOT more physical force to use, yet they were mostly one handed weapons.
Oh, I see, the paintings, illustrations, manuals, and accounts of one handed shooting are of no proof whatsoever. I get it! They recorded all those things because it looked “neat”. Wow, what a grasp of history and facts! I really hope you don’t consider your cowboy revolvers to be “massive affairs”, unless you’re a Hobbit.
“Just as fencing with skinny little swords and rapiers didn't come along until the day of real sword fighting was over, one-handed pistol shooting came along shortly after the start of the 20th Century in the game of Bullseye,
a sport evolving from pistol dueling (where the objective was to satisfy "honor" and not necessarily to hit anyone).”
By “skinny little swords” I guess you mean Epee? Saber? The use of plate Armour caused the use of thinner, pointier swords for puncturing steel and to get between the plates. The use of gunpowder and firearms made plate armor obsolete, and this in turn caused swords to become lighter and thinner. Fighting with saber, Epee, or rapier is real sword fighting too, by the way.
Saying that one handed pistol shooting evolved from bulls-eye is simply ludicrous. You admit that bulls-eye evolved from dueling, and then say that “the objective was to satisfy "honor" and not necessarily to hit anyone”. (?!?!?!?!) Dueling was largely outlawed because people DIED doing it. The whole point was to hit someone, sometimes to wound, more often to kill. What do you think they did to satisfy honor? [‘Sir, you have insulted my honor! We will duel! Now, place this cabbage on the tree beside you…’] For goodness sake! Please stop butchering historical facts to support you view.
“Please note that Bullseye shooters take a shooting stance that copies drawings of old guys engaging in duels. The American Army used to teach one-handed shooting with the 1911 soley due to the Bullseye influence.”
OK, now I’m really amazed! Bulls-eye shooters copied old paintings of guys dueling one handed, but that’s not how they really shot back then. It was only painted that way ‘cause it looked “neat”. And the US Army taught one handed shooting because bulls-eye shooters did it. Ah! I get it! Next thing you’ll be telling me there were no birds in the West.
“I am old enough to have known two 19th Century gunmen and one who made the transition into the early 20th Century. All three of them shot two-handed…”
Only one of them 19th century gunmen made the transition onto the early 20th century, so the other two died before the 20th century? To have known them in any real way you must’ve been maybe fifteen? So that would put you at 16 or 17 in 1901. So, you must’ve fought in WWI, WWII, maybe Korea, (and seen the army manuals on shooting one handed) and you’d be about 120 years old. Ok, got it!
Posted by Vermilion Kid
“If’n my life were on the line you would be receiving my lead form two hands. Hard to believe that one else could figger that out even if they was born 100 years ago!”
If your life was on the line TODAY, maybe. You would have no more used both hands in the 1800s than you would have used karate in a medieval battle. Anyway, 100 years ago would be 1904, when they were still using one handed shooting.
Posted by Wes Durn
“Gotta be honest, it's largely for reasons' along these lines(the never ending opinion pieces, etc.) that I hardly do more than a quick, cursory scan of my Cowboy Chronicle anymore.”
So you don’t read the Chronicle much ‘cause of opinions. Why? Many of those opinions are quite valid.
Posted by Shadow's Shadow, SASS #41252
“Removed post once self control was reaffirmed!”
Hmm. What’re you so angry at? Do you ever get ticked off that the gamer/IPSC mentality is corrupting SASS? That pards who want to shoot like it was done in the 1800s have to either give that up and shoot in a modern way to win big or just accept that they can only do it for fun?
Posted by Nubbins Colt #7802
“The writer of that particular article, at least with respect to one versus two handed shooting, is opinionated beyond belief and has no supporting information to back up his opinion. None. Zero. Zilch. Nada. If I was the editor I would have asked him to re-write that to reflect reality or to state clearly that it was his opinion and had no basis in research or fact of any kind.”
Actually, all the facts are easy to see, in books and accounts, paintings and illustrations, even pictures, from at least 250 years of history. You just have to open your eyes, be open minded, and give up the IPSC/gamer train of thought.
Posted by Kit Dalton - TX
“What Sundown Jim said.”
Did you actually READ what he said? ‘Cause it was about the most upside down, inaccurate, and rumor based version of history I’ve ever heard!
“Well over a million men went west to live & work. No one can convince me that no one from that era shot two handed - it just makes good common sense, particularly if your life depended upon hitting something that was a shootin' back at ya.”
Apparently not even historical data, illustrations, accounts, designs of firearms, tradition, or logic will convince those who insist on shutting their eyes.
“Hands of old men shook then same as today. Any one who has experienced that knows that two hands are more steady than one and that helps when eating with a sharp knife.”
Ok, so what about all the young men and women who’s hands don’t shake? Do you mean that it takes two hands to eat: fork in one, knife in other? ‘Cause that sounds about right. Now, if you mean that it takes two hands to hold that sharp knife I disagree. Besides, a sharp knife is easier, and safer, to work with than a dull one, thus requiring only one hand.
“These men wern't stupid, far from it. They did whatever it took to stay alive. Holding a gun using both hands isn't rocket science. Long gun are shot using both limbs - how much of a leap is that to hand guns ??? Jeeeeeeeeeez!!!”
Actually, using two hands to hold a pistol, especially using the off-hand thumb to cock it, is a learned technique, not a natural one. In addition, standing in the one handed stance presents less of a target picture for your opponent. Not until the Weaver stance did the two handed hold offer a similar reduced target, and that didn’t come in until well into the 20th century.
Long guns have really long barrels, thus the term “long” gun. The balance and design is totally different from a hand gun. Trying to justify two handed/thumb cocking shooting with no evidence while discrediting one handed despite all of the evidence, and common sense, is one hell of a leap. Let’s not get absurd.
Posted by Charley Utter, SASS #18818
”There were individuals who used two hands back in the ole west! There is one reference in an old newspaper from Hickok's time mentioning that he used "two hands" to aim and drop an opponent, and I recently read about a saloon robbery where one of the participants killed a man while shooting his six gun "two-handed." What these reports tell me is that a two hand hold was rare, since the newspapers felt it newsworthy to report that the shooting was carried out in that manner. The second thing it tells me is that it did happen on occasion, so either way is historically correct! “
You just mentioned two accounts. Wild Bill shot that man at well over fifty yards, pretty much beyond the effective range of his pistol. It was a precision shot, not for speed. If a pistol target was set at a long range, then that would warrant a precision shot. (I think that would actually be a very good addition to some stages. But, then again, the gamers will probably figure some other manner to attorney their way to a “win”. ) I’m curious to know the details of the other account. Doubt the shooter used his off – hand to both support and cock the pistol, or ran around like a modern day entry-team member.
Posted by Jackson Turner
”I read the article. In addition to being historically inaccurate - (Hey - Wild Bill - shooting his little gamer gun .36s, firing 86 grain balls, DID drill Dave Tutt shooting two-handed...)- that "My way is right, everybody else is wrong" stuff really makes me tired.”
“And I shoot duelist.”
”It's just a game; shoot anyway you want, as long as you follow the rules.”
The article was actually quite historically accurate. I remember saying that caliber was not the issue, but underpowered rounds were. Hmm, another “read into it” problem I see. Wild Bill shot that ONE man using a two handed hold at well over 50 yards. He used .36 caliber Navy revolvers, but they were certainly not gamer loads, since his life depended on those rounds. As I said in the article, two handed holds for a long distance/precision shot is logical.
Yep, it’s just a game, so why not play it how we know it should be and stop acting like bratty lawyers jumping through loopholes? Everybody can shoot the way they want, that is unless you want to win a major match. Then you’d have to shoot in a modern style. Not too much in the spirit.
Posted by Dern Tootin'
”I have almost no cartilage left in my thumb joints.If it was 1880 I'd have to shoot two handed just like I do now. They must have had arthritis before 1900. Still there's nothing much nicer to watch than a gunfighter, like Nueces Outlaw, who can really run 'em. I wish I could do it.”
Dern Tootin,
You certainly have a very legitimate point, and I’m sure there were folks who had to use both hands due to an injury etc. What I have a problem with is our sport being dominated by modern tactics. Arthritis or not, we know nobody shot in that ridiculous way the gamers do. Still, let ‘em shoot two handed and cock with their eyelids for all I care, just make it a separate category that won’t pollute and misrepresent COWBOY Action Shooting.
Posted by Wire Paladin # 5954 L-TG Regulator
”I.P.G., you know my philosophy on SASS/CAS, " If it ain't broke, don't fix it". This is a fantasy shooting sport. Have fun. PERIOD”
Well, it is broke, actually. True, this is a “fantasy shooting sport”, so why not stay in the fantasy? Why not have fun by competing in a way that’s consistent with the era we’re trying to emulate? I keep hearing “just have fun”. Wow, let’s get modern tactics dominating a period pastime, spoiling the whole feeling of it, and then tell those who always wanted to enjoy themselves in the first place to “just have fun”. That’s a perversion of the Spirit of the Game, PERIOD.
Posted by Lone Yankee, SASS #
”I don't think anyone should be forced to shoot in any style they don't want to. That should be up to the shooter. I also know it is not right to name a 2 handed shooter a winner over a one handed shooter. It just isn't the same game.”
Lone Yankee,
I never said to force anyone to shoot a particular way. You are totally right, two handed and one handed shooting are different games. Right now, due to Overall, the top winnings all go to the gamers and our sport is being both misrepresented and perverted. It looks more like IPSC with a Cowboy hat every day. Why can’t we just leave it as categories?
Posted by Gator Hix SASS #29736
”Howdy. Of course both one and two handed shooting should be allowed. No one should be forced to do either. I too understand that shooters in the 1800's sometimes shot handguns with two hands. There are examples of movies with cowboy actors shooting with both hands. But, just as a matter of curiosity, has anyone either heard of a real cowboy or watched a movie where a cowboy shoots two handed in the way that we shoot in CAS. Not just using the second hand for additional support, but rapidly cocking the gun with one hand and pulling the trigger with the other hand. I've asked for examples before, but no one has ever listed one. Just wondering. later, Gator Hicks “
We are in complete agreement!
Posted by Shoshone Slim, SASS #31347
”Frankly I don't give a rat's hind end if you shoot with 2 hands and a foot. I shoot duelest because it's fun to miss that way. Actually without a name to credit to the article I question as to why it was even printed. The author obviously is a coward and an opinionated sheet disturber. I suggest that if he wants to be authentic get the dat gum Charmin out of his bathroom and switch over to leaves and catalogs. Watch out for those picture pages they can be slick. “
I don’t give a rat’s rectum how you shoot either, as long as a modern shooting tactic isn’t perverting and dominating a period sport. Have fun missing - I enjoy hitting as many targets as possible as a Duelist. As far as using a foot, that would be rather unsafe (and silly!). You should care about that!
My name was omitted by accident (it’s Bisley Joe, # 29738, by the way.) You really shouldn’t call people such insults without knowing the whole story or waiting to find out more: it’s the sign of a buffoon. Besides, remember what Benny Hill used to say:
“Never assume: it makes an ASS (as in jackass) out of YOU and ME.
Now, as far as Charmin and using leaves and magazine pages: I don’t use Charmin, I buy Publix brand (it’s cheaper and my posterior is not in need of so much puffy softness). Those folks were basically of the Victorian mindset. Do you really picture them keeping leaves and magazines in their restrooms? Now, if it was Cowboy Action Crapping, then I would agree that Charmin is not period.
I would think a pard such as yourself would save the pictures and use the pages with those funny symbols on them.
Posted by Marshal McGavin, SASS #41117
”The article -- a letter or e-mail, really -- in the Chronicle seems to have been written by someone who caused quite a stir on these wires awhile back with just that posting almost word for word. He was taken to task with people taking sides, myself included.”
”I agree that as long as the rules are followed, we all knew what they were and can chose to shoot either way or gunfighter if we've a mind to and the skills.”
”As for the historical aspect, all the training manuals I've seen in this country prior to the 1960s show one-handed shooting for all but long range. This includes military and police, the people who used handguns most often for serious social work. The vaunted FBI, from whom police departments across the nation took their training cues, taught one-handed well into the '60s and I was taight this way when I was in the Army in the '60s, as well and in turn taught that style to officers in officer basic even though I personally shot in either a Weaver or Isoceles stance. For real close work, police training still advocates one-handed shooting without sights.”
”I shoot duelist or double duelist and know it slows me down, but it is the way that the old-style guns feel right in my hand. It also means my guns don't get as much stress on moving parts as do those who shoot in the two-handed rapid fire style.”
”There's enough evidence to support, IMO, that the guns -- even the heavy ones like the Walker -- were mostly shot with one hand. The other held either the reins or a sabre. It can certainly be done -- I've done it -- but it ain't something I'd like to do all afternoon.”
”Bottom line, do what works, let others do the same and don't try and tell people how they should do it. “
Yes, I wrote that article. If you remember the main “stir” was caused by some people acting like any dissenting opinion from their own was sacrilege, and then trying to harass me into silence. I’ve seen it happen quite a bit here. My gripe is that modern tactics are dominating, polluting, and misrepresenting our period pastime. I’m happy to see people shoot however they want, it’s when I have to give up shooting in the period manner to win against folks that have little care for the spirit of the game that I disapprove. People keep saying that we’re playing for fun, that it’s a fantasy sport: so why not play the fantasy as it is supposed to be? At least don’t have modern tactics dominating a period game.
Posted by Harve Curry (Member # 7074) on March 04, 2004 07:01 AMMarch 04, 2004 07:01 AM:
”I understand the formal or proper way to shoot a pistol in the Victorian era was one handed with your arm extended.”
”But if read some historical accounts and reports, just off the top of my head there was a soldier who as I remember, recieved the Medal of Honor for holding off a Indian attack with a two hand hold of his Colt SAA from a position of cover in some rocks. He saved the lives of many wounded soldiers.”
”Then there is Bat Masterson, got off a train to even the score with the man who killed his brother. He hollered out "are you heeled", took to a prone position on the ground near the RxR tracks and shot the guy from a rest with a two hand hold. Then got back on the train.”
”An Arizona Ranger wrote he believed in fanning his gun to get off the first few shots at an adversary, because he believed the 1st one with the most lead flying had the advantage. And when the lead was flying it unerved most bad guys quick. Then he'd pick his shot.”
”So much for myths. “
You are mentioning a historical event you can’t describe, and the Medal of Honor would not have been given for a two hand hold of a pistol, just for the heroic act. Using two hands would have been irrelevant. All of your descriptions of two handed shooting are of shots taken from a distance and from cover: precision shots, as I mentioned in my article.
Posted by Crackshot Corbin Haynes, SASS#54637
“In my short time in SASS/CAS it has become evident that much of the bellyachin' comes from the minority and not the majority. Just seems someone doesn't like losing, and alas, it is easier to gripe about it than get better. “
“Maybe it is just me, but I have won my class at a few shoots and lost a few (and am quite sure that I will lose many, many more) but the only thing I came home with worth anything was the enjoyment had shooting and being with friends. That is the great thing about this game, you can come away with that from any shoot you go to, doesn't matter how you finish.”
Funny: SASS is a period/fantasy game – it was started to get away from the IPSC mentality of loophole using and splitting hairs with the rules, to get away from the big prizes, and to have fun while competing as if we were in the Old West. Then, slowly, some people come in to this period/fantasy sport and start using modern tactics and hair splitting to win. Those who would play the fantasy game in the spirit of the game are now told to shoot in a modern way if they want to win, and when they protest they are called whiners and other names.
Nobody LIKES to lose, but you deal with it as long as the field is even. Winning and losing in class is the issue. We have Overall dominated by modern tactics, and that is both misrepresenting and perverting our sport. If we’re all so “friendly” and winning doesn’t matter, why the use of modern tactics in a period/fantasy sport? I’ve seen that the true “whiners” are those who will bend every rule and jump through every loophole and then tell everybody to “just have fun”. It’s about as weasely as you can get. I’d think that these folks would have the common decency and class to admit that they are abusing the rules and that the Overall category is not a good idea anymore.
Posted by L. G., SASS #48097
”I thought the article covered one and two handed shooting, and said that in shooting quickly and at short distances one handed was the norm, and for slow deliberate long range shots, two handed was better. The article was also talking about two handed shooting, with the off hand thumb doing the cocking instead of just being used as a steady or rest. “
L.G.
Yes! Thank you sir! That’s precisely it!
Posted by Edward Knicley
”Hey! If dey wuz spozed ta be shot with two hands; howscum they don't have two handles on 'em?????”
Because they hadn’t thought of gamers yet.
Posted by Gator Hix SASS #
”Thanks Nubbins. I guess that's the closest so far, but what you described still isn't shooting the way the typical cowboy action shooter shooting in traditional class does it. Again, not that we shouldn't shoot two handed. Just looking for examples either in cowboy history or movie history of two handed shooting SASS traditional style. later, Gator Hicks “
Traditional class is not really a big deal on its own. What I say is outrageous is that Overall is dominated by gamers: people who are using modern tactics in this cowboy game. At least if we had just the categories it would be ok. I really can’t fathom how people defend the IPSC mentality in this pastime. If a period sport is dominated by modern techniques, what’s the point of even participating in it?
Posted by Bison Bud
”Well, I got my Cowboy Chronicle this morning and after reading the anonomous article titled "What's the point of SASS/Cowboy Action Shooting" I must admit that it's about the most one-sided view of our sport that I've yet seen put to print! I've said this many times here on the wire and I'm going to say it once again, SASS/CAS is not meant to be "Reenactment" and is setup to allow us all to choose how we wish to participate in the game (that's specifically why it's been so successful). I would also agree with those that feel that a two handed hold during this time period was probably more common than most folks realize and/or are willing to admit, but in all reality it just doesn't matter. This isn't the 1890's and it's not going to be, no matter how hard we wish for it or try to recreate it. All in all, I am certainly glad that the majority of the folks in SASS don't share the author's narrow minded view of "how it should be done". To the author of the article: You are entitled to your opinion and I'd defend your right to express it, however, by not signing your name to it, it lacks any sort of credibility whatsoever and comes off pretty much as a bad joke! I hope you really weren't serious! Besides that, a good shooter can most likely shoot either way and do quite well, again it's all about personal choices. You've obviously made yours, now hows about giving everyone else the same chance. Good luck and good shooting to all. Adios. “
One sided view aye? No, SASS is not reenactment, but it is a period/fantasy sport, and what’s the point of getting into it if you’re going to use modern tactics?! Who’s trying to make this the 1880s? It’s a fantasy/period sport! Why get into it if you can’t play in the fantasy? Why, even worse, have the modern tactics control the top winnings? “Choosing” how to play is valid only insofar as you don’t want to be a major competitor. It’s gotten to the point where people admit openly that if you want to win shoot using the two hand/off-hand cocking method, weaver stance, etc.
Hell, I’ve heard “go make your own game!” What? MY own game?
Posted by Nasty Newt # 7365
”Put me down as another Duelist who is really fed up with these folks who seem compelled to opine that one-handed is the only way to shoot a sixgun. They just make me tired. “
So it doesn’t bother you, as a Duelist, to be told to choose between your class or winning?
Posted by Wes Durn SASS#
”Well...I Got the CC today and read the article/email. I think Bison Bud pretty much said it all above. The only thing I would add is to question the editorial wisdom of printing something like that at all. If that wasn't intentional "flame-bait" I don't know what would be. They had to know that sentiment, though not unheard of in CAS, basically maligns two thirds of SASS participants outright. Very unfortunate... “
“Intentional Flame Bait”? Ah, I must’ve stepped on some gamer toes. Unfortunate is the Spirit of the Game being sacrificed to the gods of winning above all, and a period pastime being turned into yet another IPSC game.
Posted by Charley Waite, SASS#50023
”I don't put much stock into an article that was not signed....Charley”
It didn’t occur to you that there was a mistake? The photo being included didn’t make you think? So all that mattered was that the name was not there. Never mind the content aye?
Posted by Lucky Deuce 1951, SASS #35350
Which is why they should not have each category compete against each other for Top Gun or Match winner...
Lucky Deuce,
That’s really the bottom line. I tried saying it countless times but some folks don’t, or don’t want to, get it.
Posted by Buffalo Dick, SASS #12880
”He persists in the belief that most fast shooters sliphammer, although many pointed out that they don't.”
Nope. Just saying that modern tactics like slip-hammering, two handed/offhand thumb cocking, and Weaver stance should not dominate a period sport.
”He persists in the belief that SASS is a historical recreation although it isn't. In his mind, only his way of playing the game is acceptable. I also remember it seemed to come out on the wire that he shoots Ruger Bisley Vaqueros with smokeless powder, which is legal and fine with me, but seemingly inconsistent with his professed purist's view of the sport.”
Wrong again. SASS is not historical reenactment, but it is a period game, thus requiring period practices to play properly. I shoot two 7.5” Bisley revolvers from Navy Arms, in .45 LC. I shot smokeless powder because that was the only way I could. I am not a purist, just someone who believes in the Spirit of the Game.
”I also remember his comment, repeated in the article, that legal two-handed shooting is a "perversion" of the "spirit of the game." He ignores the sound arguments that there probably was some two handed shooting in gunfights and, more importantly, many shooters could or would not participate in matches if required to shoot one handed. “
Here’s what I actually said, straight from the article:
‘It doesn’t bother me much on its own, but the fact that the only way anyone has a chance to win a match outright, not to mention a championship, is to shoot two-handed/slip thumb is, in my opinion, a complete perversion of the spirit of the game.’
As far as ignoring “the sound arguments that there probably was some two handed shooting in gunfights”, Here’s what I actually said, straight from the article:
‘Yes, there was the occasional steadying of the pistol by placing the barrel on the forearm, maybe even by holding the wrist or other hand, but this was for precision shots!’
“When this was on the wire and most responses were contra his position, he became indignant that people would post a contra position on "his" thread rather than help solve what he perceived as a problem.”
Funny. You were one of those that put words in my mouth (still doing it I see). What actually happened was that a few people got bent out of shape at my nerve to post such a dissenting opinion and, instead of arguing valid points, decided to harangue and harass me into shutting up. When I defended myself and refused to be shut up they got really angry and started to disrupt the post like little babies. Of course, it was folks like you who bravely stood up only when I defended myself, and stood silent at comments like “you have a pointless point” and the threat of fighting. Why don’t you mention folks harassing and disturbing my separate post thanking those who agreed and disagreed in a gentlemanly manner, and even the post asking people to stop disrupting the post? Ahhhh, maybe those were your pards…
“BTW I shoot duelist, usually classic cowboy, and I love to watch the fast two handed shooters compete and I couldn't care less about the fact that the method I CHOOSE to compete is nowhere near as fast. I am also not bothered by the fact that an overall winner is announced, that in no way diminishes the accomplishments of the winners of those categories that are necessarily slower due to equipment or shooting style requirements. Every category winner is a winner to me, and I'm a "winner" just by participating in the sport.”
Great! Now we can all sing and say how friendly we are, so long as we stay in line and support the gamers. I’d say that those who CHOOSE to shoot in a period pastime and use modern tactics are the ones to say these things to. Tell you what BD, have fun, win, loose, feel good that you forfeit winning by shooting period in a period game, but don’t put words in my mouth, and don’t try to act like everything is so friendly.
“I don't understand why the Chronicle continues to print stuff like this, especially by one who won't even put his name on it. The people I see at the shoots are having too much fun to whine about how someone else plays the game. The feedback on the wire shows that this type of unhappy individual is truly a minority in our sport.”
Of course you don’t get it! As I said before: pretty perverse to come into a period pastime with modern tactics and then call the ones who want to preserve it “whiners”. Whiners are the ones who don’t have the class or guts to compete on a level field. It’s become all about winning and about the little clique. The feedback on the wire represents a vast minority of SASS members. There are MANY folks who no longer participate in the wire, some who have even left SASS, because of the sheer meanness, rudeness, and bullying on the wire.
Posted by I. M. CROSSDRAW, SASS# 8321
“Oh come on. Has anybody really have seen the real cowboy shoot with one hand. You have to live back then to really know if cowboys really shoot one handed. Someone said they saw someone in a movie shooting with one hand. That's Hollywood, anything is posible. So why not in CAS. Anybody can shoot two handed or one handed or no hands at all. I dont care. JUST HAVE FUN, OK. GEEEEEEZ!”
Well, we’ve got Wyatt Earp talking to early filmmakers. We’ve got countless pictures, paintings, accounts, and the design of the handguns. We also have common sense. I can’t figure out what else to say to you except: read the article, read some history, and do a little thinking.
Posted by Colt Darkhorse, SASS# 39984
”…show me someone who's been in a real gunfight and I'll show you someone who's had both hands white-knuckled on their handgun.”
With all due respect, that statement is wrong. I have never had to shoot anyone (thank God), but I have had to draw down on a couple of folks who meant me harm. It all depends on the situation. But we’re playing a period game. It’s easy to say you’d shoot two handed because you are living now. Those old guns were deigned for one hand. The modern isosceles and Weaver etc. were developed late in the game.
Posted by Gold Canyon Kid #43974 (Member # 11280) on March 23, 2004 08:21 PMMarch 23, 2004 08:21 PM:
Are you out of wind yet?
Posted by Texas Tres Equis (Member # 9908) on March 23, 2004 08:28 PMMarch 23, 2004 08:28 PM:
Did I talk to you on Sunday?
Posted by Irish Red O'Toole, #48939 (Member # 13828) on March 23, 2004 09:26 PMMarch 23, 2004 09:26 PM:
BisleyJoe,
If you're in SASS for period correctness, more power to you. However, the dissenting opinions you just posted show that your opinion is not shared by the greater majority of SASS. When F. Jackson Turner (the current World Champion Duelist by the way) says your arguments are flawed, it's prudent to take notice.
One of your comments struck me as odd, "Yep, it’s just a game, so why not play it how we know it should be...." This implies that the vast majority of players are playing wrong. My Shooter's Handbook says the way I shoot is perfectly OK. Unless you have become the sole authority of what is and isn't acceptable, I'm going to disregard the vast majority of your opinion.
As I said in my first sentence, if you are in SASS for historical accuracy, enjoy yourself. SASS was never meant to be a historical reenactment group. The name of the game is, after all, Cowboy ACTION Shooting. The beauty of this sport/hobby/pastime is that everyone can find the niche that they enjoy the most. If you are in this to win matches and get trophies, you can choose the style that will let you do this.
Posted by Wes Durn SASS#18998 (Member # 11766) on March 23, 2004 09:37 PMMarch 23, 2004 09:37 PM:
Quite an undertaking. But alas, validity, like many things is in the eye of the beholder...so I stand by my quote above.
There's one key problem with your thesis(rant). You continue to assert that all these things will or have ruined The Game. Really? How so? Specifically, what tangible damage have any of these alleged "violations" of your personal interpretation of the SOG done? Moreover, how on earth does any of it directly affect you anyway?
You have offered no proof of how all this "anachronistic" behavior harms CAS whatsoever.
By the way - someone should inform Judge Roy Bean he's playing the game wrong...I'm sure he'll be surprised to learn that.
[ March 23, 2004, 09:39 PM: Message edited by: Wes Durn SASS#18998 ]
Posted by Sidekick (Member # 13177) on March 23, 2004 09:39 PMMarch 23, 2004 09:39 PM:
If you are so adament about your thoughts on this subject then why did you not sign the article in the Chronicle, and when this was all hashed out a week or so ago why didn't you jump in and defend your position?
Posted by Bison Bud (Member # 7838) on March 23, 2004 10:09 PMMarch 23, 2004 10:09 PM:
Bisley Joe,
As I stated previously, you are entitled to your opinion and I'd defend your right to express it. I am also pleased that you came on here and gave some credibility to your article and opinion by admitting to being the author. Frankly, that took guts, especially after some of the comments made, and I admire that in a person! However, the whole thing still comes off as mighty one sided. To me and many others CAS has always been another shooting sport and frankly the best one out there due to it's many choices of how to compete. I still feel that this is one of the reasons that it has been so successful and continues to grow. I don't mean to try to put words in your mouth, but the whole thing appears to come off as just another cowpoke that doesn't care for recognizing an overall winner. While it is true that most of the overall winners shoot "double fisted", I see no reason to use that as an excuse not to recognize the overall winner of a big match! I too feel that all the class winners are champions, but in any contest there is an overall winner and it's downright un-American not to recognize that! Frankly, most of the top guns could win in most any catagory they might choose, so what's the point in trying to degrade their choice of shooting technique and/or style? SASS recently started the "Classic Cowboy" catagory to address many of your concerns and this catagory is growing rapidly in this area. I see this as a good thing and I'll admit that those that complete in this catagory are not going to be highly competitive with the Modern and Traditional catagory shooters. What I don't understand is why that appears to matter so much to folks like yourself. There's a place for everyone to compete at whatever level they choose and for the life of me, I can't understand why that rubs some folks the wrong way. I guess if you want to be the Top Gun/overall winner, then it does make sense to shoot "double fisted", but how does that really take away from the rest of us that shoot one handed or with a gun in both hands? I honestly respect your choice to shoot Duelist style and I'd be proud to posse up and shoot with you as well, but I must say that this whole thing has been blowen way out of proportion! Good luck and good shooting to all. Adios.
Posted by Sodbuster Oliver Bend, SASS #46387 (Member # 17068) on March 23, 2004 10:23 PMMarch 23, 2004 10:23 PM:
Joe you just have too much free time it would appear. When was a bisley used in the old west or even a movie? Oh that is right it was just target pistol with only few ever built not meant to be used to defend yourself or ride the range. Guess we should just outlaw them. ![[Confused]](file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/ADMINI%7E1/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msohtml1/01/clip_image001.gif)
Posted by Nubbins Colt #7802 (Member # 938) on March 23, 2004 10:28 PMMarch 23, 2004 10:28 PM:
BAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!! Nicely done, Bisley Joe! I like it, even if you're wrong.
My general reply would be, to paraphrase The Bard, that methinks you doth protest too much.
First, just to use your remark about my comments:
You wrote:
Actually, all the facts are easy to see, in books and accounts, paintings and illustrations, even pictures, from at least 250 years of history. You just have to open your eyes, be open minded, and give up the IPSC/gamer train of thought.
You make three mistakes there.
1. When you say "all the facts" you presume you have them, and nobody else does. That, in itself, is a roaring inaccuracy. Most specifically, when we say that two handed shooting was known in the Old West we are not saying that it was done by every shooter who lived. However, to assume that by looking at the pictures or paintings of the era, especially those glamorizing the era, and then saying that nobody shot two handed, is to be somewhat ridiculous. I wrote some time back that wearing vests was common. I was harangued by folks saying that not everyone wore vests and they had pictures to prove it. I said it was common, I did not say it was everyone. Same for two handed shooting. One handed shooting was common. The pictures you cite evidence that. But you cannot prove the negative by the pictures of one handed shooting/shooters. The pictures do NOT prove it was not done and your assertion that "all the facts are easy to see" is an opinion, and not factual at all. And I bet you're smart enough to know that.
2. You presume that you are the only one with an open mind and open eyes. But you are only using your eyes. Your mind, if it was truly open, would see that the shooters of long ago would be just as prone to realize that a two handed hold worked well, and was more accurate, just as we understand that today. The fact that two handed shooting was seldom seen had more to do with how guns were carried and, therefore, normally used, etc., and had nothing to do with our forebears understanding of shooting.
3. You presume that I have shot IPSC and/or that I am a "gamer" in the negative sense of that term. The fact is, I have never even been to an IPSC match, and I am so far from being a gamer that even the clean match I shot last Sunday was so slow it did not get me into the top five in my class, which happens to be Duelist, so you really have no clue what you say when call me an IPSC gamer.
That said, you forget another thing. Even if you were correct, for the sake of argument only, this is not an authentic game. It is a fantasy game. Some folks are as authentic as they can be; most of the folks look kind of authentic but otherwise don't give a darn. So grow up and get over it. Many times movies have shown two handed shooting and the movies are a MAJOR PART of the SASS game. "Young Guns" is one such example. "Ride With the Devil", a movie about the Qauntrill guerillas, using cap and ball pistols, is another good example of shooters using two hands to hold revolvers when they needed speed and accuracy. Even if the writers did not do any research to verify this style of 19th century shooting, the fact that it exists in the movies makes it legitimate for our game. So, besides the fact that you confuse your opinion for 19th century facts, you are wrong from the fantasy standpoint, and, therefore, your version of modern tactics versus fantasy is completely misplaced. Modern "tactics", if that's what they are, are perfectly acceptable in the SASS fantasy, despite your personal dislike thereof.
Moreover, what the heck is a cowboy game? We talk "cowboy", and the "cowboy" way, but we all know that in reality the cowboys did not do the gunfighting, not for the most part. They had a tough job and a tough life and even if they carried firearms they were not
gunfighters. "Cowboy" is a general term for western appearance, western gear, western duds, etc. The game we play LOOKS Old West but, now, it is very 21st century in any number of ways (what do you use for a timer, a stop watch?) - it is a period sport in attitude more than anything else. And I am not sure you even have the right attitude.
You wrote:
"I really can’t fathom how people defend the IPSC mentality in this pastime. If a period sport is dominated by modern techniques, what’s the point of even participating in it?"
Then don't participate. Go play somewhere else. Invent your own game, limit it to blackpowder only, original guns only, and go have fun. Take your attitude with you. You said: "Hell, I’ve heard “go make your own game!” What? MY own game?". It appears to me that's exactly what you're talking about.
You admit that you are not a purist, that you use smokeless powder (for whatever reason), and that "SASS is not historical reenactment..." So what in the world are you griping about?
You say that SASS is a "...period game, thus requiring period practices to play properly." I say horsepuckey! There are no such things as period practices or we'd all reload our own, use blackpowder, and only shoot a very little because ammo is too costly to waste. It's a GAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That means it is PLAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That means we can do what the heck we want, within the overall rules. WHAT THE HECK IS YOUR PROBLEM?
You claim that you are "just someone who believes in the Spirit of the Game." You do not understand the Spirit of the Game. It is ATTITUDE, not the guns, not the gear, not the clothes. A game is fun, and the spirit of the game is to have fun, and that is within the rules that SASS gives us. If SASS had never permitted two handed shooting this would be a different game but that was tossed out the window years ago when Traditional class shooting was permitted. So it is time for you to get over it.
To conclude, you wrote, here on the Wire and in the Chronicle:
It doesn’t bother me much on its own, but the fact that the only way anyone has a chance to win a match outright, not to mention a championship, is to shoot two-handed/slip thumb is, in my opinion, a complete perversion of the spirit of the game.’
That is simply an ignorant statement. You don't get it. You don't get the spirit of the game, you don't get what this sport is all about, and the fact that you think that what the sport's founders permitted perverts their game evidences your complete ignorance of what is going on here.
I have disagreed vehemently with pards before and perhaps some day you and I will shoot together and maybe bend an elbow but right now I am thoroughly disgusted with your petty, narrow view of what this sport is, and your self absorbed opinion that suggests that only you know how it should be played.
***Nubbins Colt***
Posted by Def Dan Dreager, SASS #54479 (Member # 16416) on March 24, 2004 12:11 AMMarch 24, 2004 12:11 AM:
No one knows for sure if people shot with one hand or two in the wild west. Could be like now where some shoot one way and some the other way. It really doesn't matter because you and I don't make the rules for SASS. When I joined SASS, I agreed to follow the rules set by those that run/own SASS. It's their club and they decide how things are run. If I didn't like their rules and thought I couldn't abide by them I wouldn't have joined. If you don't like their rules, join a club that sees things your way or start the Bisley Joe Shooting Society and make your own rules. If people flock to your club and SASS withers away, you'll be vindicated.
Posted by BJT (Member # 16523) on March 24, 2004 01:24 AMMarch 24, 2004 01:24 AM:
"Right now, due to Overall, the top winnings all go to the gamers and our sport is being both misrepresented and perverted."
Huh? What?
I attended EOT last year and saw some very nice trophies going to Duelist, Senior Duelist, Lady Duelist, Black Powder Duelist, Classic, Gunfighter and Frontiersman. In fact, the duelist categories have been significantly expanded over the years. I saw one trophy for Overall and by God it was deserved by the awesome performance of the man who won it, a man that personifies the best of the sport. Given all of the awards that went to class specific achievement and the fact that only one was related to overall performance, I see no basis for any complaint by a reasonable person.
Further, I see it as a perversion of a competitive game to not recognize outstanding performance. At our monthly matches, Doc Shapiro is kind enough to go to the local after shoot hangout, run scores and announce them. I happened to be outside when he did this last. From outside the building I could hear the chearing for the 62 year old gunfighter who put the other 72 shooters behind him with an outstanding performance. I am damn proud of that shooter and would be ashamed of a sport that did not recognize such a performance.
It takes a small and petty mind to be disturbed by the accomplishments of others.
Black Jack Traven
Posted by Def Dan Dreager, SASS #54479 (Member # 16416) on March 24, 2004 01:29 AMMarch 24, 2004 01:29 AM:
Wish I had waited a bit before posting my previous reply. Nubbins Colt said it better.
Posted by El Cheeso Grande SASS# 56405 (Member # 17320) on March 24, 2004 02:34 AMMarch 24, 2004 02:34 AM:
Wow! I didn't read the article in the chronicle, or the thread referred to, or even all of Bisley Joe's post. But I would like to comment on something that has occurred to me as a newbie in this sport/hobby. When reading match results in the magazines, it seems that the "overall winner" is always someone from the traditional or modern class. So two thoughts occur to me as a newbie: 1) why even make the distinction of "overall winner" when its always from the traditional or modern class? The distinction seems to lose all meaning. 2) the obvious message I get from this point is that if one wants to truly be a "competitor" in this Sport/hobby (which I don't), one has to shoot two-handed. So it seems like if one really prefers to shoot duelist, but also has a competitive nature and would like to see their name in the "overall winner" category someday, the chances are pretty slim. Just my naive observations.
Cheeso
Posted by Culloden SASS# 40922 (Member # 8948) on March 24, 2004 03:19 AMMarch 24, 2004 03:19 AM:
Hey, didn't that little girl in "True Grit" shoot that big ol' walker two-handed? Looks like a classic western film legitimization of the style to me!
I started out shooting Modern with a pair of Blackhawks. Finally got some Vaqueros because the sights excluded me from too many classes. I shot Traditional for awhile but moved on quickly to Duelist and even shot Gunfighter a few times last year when I felt safe and ready. I've had fun with all of 'em, even won top place in my category at the local shoot a few times. I like trying different styles and using new skills -- That kind of fun is what this game is all about to me.
I don't think anyone could argue that two handed shooting has a tactical advantage in most situations, particularly with off-hand thumb-cocking a SA. That, and a lot of practice, probably explains why so many folks finishing top overall use that tactic since it's allowed by the rules and is as legit as anything else in this game.
But all this incessant debate about legitimacy of one vs. two handed technique is really just too much "one-handed fanning", IMHO.
Posted by Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440 (Member # 15966) on March 24, 2004 03:53 AMMarch 24, 2004 03:53 AM:
Ok, While I take issue with the notion that all the evidence points to folks not using two hands, I agree the one hand hold probably did dominate.
It also occurs to me that in an era following on the heels of the time of dueling pistols, and an era that preceded the modern revolver and ammunition, making oneself as small a target as possible was just as important as firing accurately, if not moreso. Think about it. Many early guns were unreliable and innacurate. The one thing a man could control was how he presented to his opponent. If he could not take cover, he could at least stand sideways.
Now, as to the use of modern, reliable replicas of old guns with modern reliable ammo (not BP cartridges that had been drug around a while and put away wet a bunch), it makes more tactical sense to get off a fast accurate shot (you can count on it more). That is to say, the advantage has moved to the offense, and away from the defense.
The two-handed cocking is, it seems to me, the worst perversion of tradition. Had such a method taken hold, it is doubtful the DA revolver would have dominated the industry as it did. Who needs a "self cocking" gun if you already have both hands employed in cycling yer revolver?
Now, as to shooting one vs two hands in our little game, I recognize that duelist is probably the most common old time method. I also recognize that as a lifetime handgun hunter and paper puncher, I do a whole bunch better with two mitts on the gun instead of one, and likely will continue to shoot that way. I cock the gun with my shooting hand, always have, and don't wanna do it the other way. Someday I MAY try duelist, just to see IF I can train myself to shoot one handed, but as a way to EASE INTO the game, importing as much of what I already did as possible just made sense. Why would I want to toss away the accuracy and physical skills I DO have when learning a game that already incorporates enough new (to me)elements I have to fret over (crossdraw shuffle, target order, etc).
America is a "Number one" oriented culture. We don't do "committees of equals" well. We have single office holder executives, not co-presidents, etc. So, I guess we will always wanna know who is "overall" champ. That's why auto racing developed IROC, to cite one example.
So, maybe somebody can come up with an algorithym to handicap the classes, and then (like weighting horses) give a few seconds handicap to duelist, elder statesman, junior girls, etc, so we can all have this IMAGINARY level playing field.
Now, I grew up in the REAL WORLD. I know there ain't nothing fair or level about life (but cemetaries tend to be level playing fields). MY neighbor inherited a lot of money and genes that leave him with a full head of hair and good skin at 60. He's got advantages. All the whining in the world ain't gonna take that away. (ps, proletarian thinking went out with the fall of the wall). There's no way LIFE is fair.
I can't get the PGA to let me take my 120 game and play against Tiger Woods for the big prize. It ain't gonna happen, with or without a handicap. They won't even let me try. That ain't fair (but it is life).
Now, I fully expect some to always push the envelope in technique and in equipment. That's our American heritage in action. We innovate, challenge limits, push for more, (even when we seemingly have enough). It's who we are as a people, what we do. No, not all of us, but all of us didn't invent the lightbulb, go to the moon, etc. We do act to support it though, even if it means we just go about our own business and read about the more adventurous in the papers.
The masses of shooters support CAS, and the elite win. Same as golf, or any part of life. Get over it.
Posted by Carolina Lucky SASS#30020 (Member # 12859) on March 24, 2004 04:26 AMMarch 24, 2004 04:26 AM:
“Two classes also makes a level playing field of two-handers separate to one-handers.”
Not in overall, which dominates and misrepresents our sport.
Hickok's first recorded gunfight states he made his shot "two-handed". How can you say two handed shooting is a misrepresentation? Your argument is based on a faulty premise, and there is no evidence to support it other than your imagination.
Carolina Lucky
Posted by Doc Whip Lash #15561 (Member # 9566) on March 24, 2004 05:06 AMMarch 24, 2004 05:06 AM:
Holy S..t! BTT ![[Eek!]](file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/ADMINI%7E1/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msohtml1/01/clip_image002.gif)
Just my opinion.
Doc Whip Lash (Duelist,Bullwhipper,Horseman) ![[Cool]](file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/ADMINI%7E1/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msohtml1/01/clip_image003.gif)
Posted by Capt. Morgan Rum, SASS #6859 (Member # 14434) on March 24, 2004 05:43 AMMarch 24, 2004 05:43 AM:
F-A-N-T-A-S-Y
I hope everyone enjoys theirs in their own way.
THAT is what SASS is all about !!!
Posted by Whiskey Sipper, 27069 (Member # 15326) on March 24, 2004 05:47 AMMarch 24, 2004 05:47 AM:
WOW!!!, now that's a lot a typing.
Posted by Cohagen (Member # 17097) on March 24, 2004 06:19 AMMarch 24, 2004 06:19 AM:
Joe, figurin the way you do, I wonder why they even bother to keep score. I think you would take a school class and mix all the A students and all the C students so that everyone ended up with a B. This is America, if someone wants to pay money to someone else to learn thier shooting skills, frankly its' none of your damned business. Cohagen
Blastin Black and coverin my back
Posted by Harve Curry (Member # 7074) on March 24, 2004 06:24 AMMarch 24, 2004 06:24 AM:
Bisley Joe,
The Colt Bisley model was not introduced untill 1894, for target shooting at Bisley range in England. It was discontinued by 1912.
As far as illustrations being proof of anything, there is that "artistic license" thing.
Remember Congress didn't believe in the wonders of Yellowstone (Colters Hell), till it was photographed by William Henry Jackson.
Untill you can document more of what you say.The preponderense of evidence suggests that the guns were heavy, the loads were hot, and people found that they could hit better with two hands. Hmmm, where have I heard that before.
Photographs show folks posing and at there best. They display the gun in one hand, and sucked in their gut (if they had one, no potato chips or unlimited supply of ice cream).
I shoot from horse back one handed and have fun, and usually hit what I'm pointing at. But those are blanks like what John Wayne shot.
The one inarguable thing you have in your article is they were hand guns, made to be shot one handed. But how many adhered to that? I think people are pretty much the same then as now.
As far as my not describing enough about Bat Masterson, the Arizona Ranger, or that soldier, you didn't document anything in your article.
Posted by Silver Sam, SASS #34718L (Member # 4948) on March 24, 2004 07:40 AMMarch 24, 2004 07:40 AM:
Well as the Old Saying goes...
"Opinions are like #$$holes, Everybody has One."
Apparently Yours is a Very Big One.
Posted by Lucky Deuce 1951, SASS #35350 (Member # 10638) on March 24, 2004 08:32 AMMarch 24, 2004 08:32 AM:
Well let me go on record as supporting you...
Did people in the old west shoot two handed??? I am sure there probably were some....We can't say everybody shot one handed and used no other style. The only absolute is that there are no absolutes. However I would wager that a majority shot Duelist style... OK so in one or two recorded accounts someone shot using two hands (which by the way, did it say they thumbed the hammer??? Or used the Weaver Stance???) Does this mean Everybody did it that way??? Gee, were there 1800's era people who used the Point Shooting method or something similar? Probably...so does that mean we should all shoot this way???
As for the power issue... I have always shot one handed.. Everything from .22 to .44 Magnum...Did the higher calibers kick...heck yeah but I still could handle it... Right now I shoot full power loads in my Remington .44's and use only one hand with no problem... So the excuse that because the guns were heavy and the loads were powerful so they had to use two hands doesn't hold water... (I have also shot a Walker one handed and if you want to talk about a heavy gun thats it)
Even in the old westerns and tv shows (which seem to be a sort of Holy Icon for many) they didn't use a two handed shooting stance... So why do we do it now??? Yes, there are those who for health reasons have to but that doesn't mean everybody should...
I also agree about eliminating the Over-All or Top Shooter... The Categories are separate and should not compete with each other since there is no comparison. How many Frontiersmen or Frontier Cartridge shooters have won Top Shooter or World Champion???
This is one of the Sacred cows that seem to bring out the venom in others...unfortunately...
[ March 24, 2004, 08:54 AM: Message edited by: Lucky Deuce 1951, SASS #35350 ]
Posted by Sodbuster Oliver Bend, SASS #46387 (Member # 17068) on March 24, 2004 08:37 AMMarch 24, 2004 08:37 AM:
The nice thing about America is we can still do some of what we want but the mentality of people like Joe certainly keeps narrowing what we can do down.
Think about it Joe. It is called FREEDOM.
Posted by Mike Bastian SASS #9352 L (Member # 11616) on March 24, 2004 09:22 AMMarch 24, 2004 09:22 AM:
Boy Howdy this is a big post.
First in defense of Bisley Joe, at the end of the article the editor mentions that the info on the writer was lost. duh am I the only one that read it? Making personal attacks on someone because of an error like that is crazy, its slanderous, not the "Cowboy Way"
Second when I started this sport the Modern Class was the dominating class as far as top shooters were concerned. It then evolved into the era which we are now in where the Traditional Class wins more. After watching some Top Gunfighter Class shooters like, Poke Along here in Orygun, I would not be surprised if it moves to that at some point.
I give great credit to those who shoot one handed, it is far more skill than I have, yes I shoot 2 handed. Have I shot single handed? Yep. Is it something I might do in the future? Yep, but only when I get the chance to practice it more and more and more. Heck I might even take up Gun Fighter.
My own personl read into your thoughts is that you are hung up on the fact that the "Traditional" shooters are "Gamers" and getting all the "Winnings". What happens if the sport starts being dominated by women? Will that be another excuse for those of us not in the "winners" bracket? Granted I have seen some pards put on dresses to try and gain an advantage (would have worked too if only they had not forgotten to shave). When you write about winnings are you refering to the "Fame" or the "Trophies"? As far as I know there is still no cash on the table for the winners, and you can have all the fame and trophies in the world and before you know it some 14 year old kid is going to take it all away from you. Sure some of the top shooters get the opportunity to endorse products, some might even get free stuff. Am I jealous? Maybe but it does not preclude me from having a good time and admiring the skill shown. Heck they have earned it.
All top shooters are not gamers! I am willing to stand by that statement because I have seen some of the best shoot and know it for a fact. My definition of a gamer is someone that looks for the shortcuts in the stage design that were not inteded to be used.
If the Colt Single Action Army was designed to be shot single handed, why did Colt completly redesign the grip and the hammer for the Bisley? Because the Bisley was designed to be shot one handed.
If this is such a huge controversy that is going to or has driven people away from SASS, which will be a huge downfall for the organization, why are more that 800 shooters signed up for EOT next month. If it was a shrinking sport then wouldn't there be a correlation with the big matches.
Finally there are people whom I will not shoot with in this sport, for reasons related to Saftey, Lack of SOG, Attitude, Shortcut gamers and such. If the opportunity comes along to shoot on your posse I will cheerfully accept again and again (less of course I find you to be guilty of the afore mentioned). This is all about having fun. Do we all have our own opinions? Thank goodness yes. Are the rules laid out before us? Again yes.
Smile, have fun, follow the rules and shoot straight, be it Traditional, Modern, Duelist, Dbl Duelist, Gunfighter, 49'er, Senior, Elder Statesman, Frontier Cartridge, Junior, Womens Traditional, Womens Modern, Womens Duelist, Womens Duelist, Womens Dbl Duelist, Womens Gunfighter, etc, etc, etc.
Besides isn't there already an organization that requires what you are calling for, NCOWS?
This is SASS and I am proud to say I belong.
Mike Bastian #9352 Life
Posted by Flat Iron (Member # 12238) on March 24, 2004 09:29 AMMarch 24, 2004 09:29 AM:
Bisley Joe
If we don't use a timer when you shoot and just declare you the match winner, will you finally shut up and go away?
Flat Iron
Posted by Shoshone Slim, SASS #31347 (Member # 12478) on March 24, 2004 09:50 AMMarch 24, 2004 09:50 AM:
Boy oh boy.....You sure told me Bisley Joe....wow, I'm still stingin'. I do apologize for the coward remark,though. It took you awhile but you did come forward. Still think you're full of crap but I'm sure the feeling is mutual, or am I assuming again, you know making an ass outta u and me. Also, if you don't know about old catalogs in the outhouse you ain't been in too many outhouses.
You wrote:
quote:
Have fun missing - I enjoy hitting as many targets as possible as a Duelist
Not familiar with self deprecating humor, huh?
And by the by it would be called Cowboy A ction Crappin' Association or CACA and trust me you'd be CACA #1.
[ March 24, 2004, 01:08 PM: Message edited by: Shoshone Slim, SASS #31347 ]
Posted by Strawberry Lars SASS #22468 (Member # 349) on March 24, 2004 09:57 AMMarch 24, 2004 09:57 AM:
It would seem that a truly thin skinned, opinionated person has made his presence known.
Comments by Nubbins Colt seem quite appropriate.
Lars
PS: Learned pistol shooting from folks that expected the "target" to shoot back. They shoot 1 or 2 handed, as best fit the situation. FWIW, they considered the Weaver stance suited to folks with death wish or lots of body armor.
Posted by Marshal Tkd (Member # 7685) on March 24, 2004 10:08 AMMarch 24, 2004 10:08 AM:
Holy Cow that has got to be some kind of record! But I kinda lost interst after the first 3 paragraphs.
Posted by Jake Mountain #35806 (Member # 15859) on March 24, 2004 12:24 PMMarch 24, 2004 12:24 PM:
And I thought Driftwood Johnson had the most long winded post I had ever read. ![[Big Grin]](file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/ADMINI%7E1/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msohtml1/01/clip_image004.gif)
But at least his posts have some useful information.
All I can say is some people sure do worry about things WAY TOO MUCH
Hope you find what you want in life Mr. Bisley Joe.
Posted by Constable Nelson #11784 (Member # 1779) on March 24, 2004 10:08 PMMarch 24, 2004 10:08 PM:
1. EVERY category winner at EOT is a "World Champion"... That is now, and has always been the case.
2. Recognising the overall match winner, as an additional and separate award detracts in no way at all from 1.
3. There is NO SUCH THING as "Overall Class"!!
Constable Nelson
Frontier Cartridge World Champion 2001
(That's what the trophy and buckle say anywho)
In winning FC that year I came 39th Overall.. I am ALSO extremely proud of that - because I am one of those "competitive types" you seem to dislike - yet that was quite irrelevant to the category win....
Posted by Buffalo Buck 5042 LTG (Member # 56) on March 25, 2004 03:11 AMMarch 25, 2004 03:11 AM:
Who gets the "Black Badge"?
Posted by Doc Whip Lash #15561 (Member # 9566) on March 25, 2004 06:40 AMMarch 25, 2004 06:40 AM:
BTT ![[Smile]](file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/ADMINI%7E1/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msohtml1/01/clip_image005.gif)
Posted by BisleyJoe 29738 (Member # 9905) on March 25, 2004 12:21 PMMarch 25, 2004 12:21 PM:
Posted by Gold Canyon Kid #43974 (Member # 11280) on March 23, 2004 08:21 PMMarch 23, 2004 08:21 PM:
”Are you out of wind yet?”
Nope.You acquired any manners yet? Wait, let me answer that for ya: obviously not! ![[Roll Eyes]](file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/ADMINI%7E1/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msohtml1/01/clip_image006.gif)
Posted by Irish Red O'Toole, #48939 (Member # 13828) on March 23, 2004 09:26 PMMarch 23, 2004 09:26 PM:
”If you're in SASS for period correctness, more power to you. However, the dissenting opinions you just posted show that your opinion is not shared by the greater majority of SASS. When F. Jackson Turner (the current World Champion Duelist by the way) says your arguments are flawed, it's prudent to take notice.One of your comments struck me as odd, "Yep, it’s just a game, so why not play it how we know it should be...." This implies that the vast majority of players are playing wrong. My Shooter's Handbook says the way I shoot is perfectly OK. Unless you have become the sole authority of what is and isn't acceptable, I'm going to disregard the vast majority of your opinion.As I said in my first sentence, if you are in SASS for historical accuracy, enjoy yourself. SASS was never meant to be a historical reenactment group. The name of the game is, after all, Cowboy ACTION Shooting. The beauty of this sport/hobby/pastime is that everyone can find the niche that they enjoy the most. If you are in this to win matches and get trophies, you can choose the style that will let you do this.”
No need to stress the word opinion. I am well aware that it is an opinion, and that there are some on The Wire who just can’t handle one. As far as period correctness, we definitely strive for at least some. We require period hats, boots, etc. We regulate how ammo belts can be worn. We also don’t allow double actions or loading up ‘97s, etc. and we frown on jeans. The name of the game is COWBOY ACTION SHOOTING, yes. It is not Action Shooting Cowboy style. Since the word Cowboy is first, it describes the theme of the game. You are missing the point that Overall misrepresents/dominates our game by allowing modern tactics to control a period pastime.
Posted by Wes Durn SASS#18998 (Member # 11766) on March 23, 2004 09:37 PMMarch 23, 2004 09:37 PM:
“Quite an undertaking. But alas, validity, like many things is in the eye of the beholder...so I stand by my quote above.”
We are talking of facts. We know that people didn’t shoot two handed and cock with their off-hand thumb. Your beholding eye is apparently seeing mirages. Do you also give the Wire a cursory look or is it just in The Chronicle that you hold such a low view of opinions?
“There's one key problem with your thesis(rant). You continue to assert that all these things will or have ruined The Game. Really? How so? Specifically, what tangible damage have any of these alleged "violations" of your personal interpretation of the SOG done? Moreover, how on earth does any of it directly affect you anyway?”
Well, my dissertation is hardly a “rant”, as you put it. I realize your inability to respect another’s opinion, but “rant” is a harsh word. I covered the negative effects already. Try reading it over.
Take initiative, tell Judge Roy Bean yourself, but don’t misrepresent what I’ve said (hard as it may be).
Bottom line is that modern tactics should not dominate a period pastime.
Posted by Sidekick (Member # 13177) on March 23, 2004 09:39 PMMarch 23, 2004 09:39 PM:
“If you are so adament about your thoughts on this subject then why did you not sign the article in the Chronicle, and when this was all hashed out a week or so ago why didn't you jump in and defend your position? “
It was pretty clear in the article that the name was left out by mistake - mine or those who received it - but a mistake nevertheless. I found out about this less than a week ago, that’s why I’m defending my position now. Satisfied?
Posted by Bison Bud (Member # 7838) on March 23, 2004 10:09 PMMarch 23, 2004 10:09 PM:
“As I stated previously, you are entitled to your opinion and I'd defend your right to express it. I am also pleased that you came on here and gave some credibility to your article and opinion by admitting to being the author. Frankly, that took guts, especially after some of the comments made, and I admire that in a person! However, the whole thing still comes off as mighty one sided. To me and many others CAS has always been another shooting sport and frankly the best one out there due to it's many choices of how to compete. I still feel that this is one of the reasons that it has been so successful and continues to grow. I don't mean to try to put words in your mouth, but the whole thing appears to come off as just another cowpoke that doesn't care for recognizing an overall winner. While it is true that most of the overall winners shoot "double fisted", I see no reason to use that as an excuse not to recognize the overall winner of a big match! I too feel that all the class winners are champions, but in any contest there is an overall winner and it's downright un-American not to recognize that! Frankly, most of the top guns could win in most any catagory they might choose, so what's the point in trying to degrade their choice of shooting technique and/or style? SASS recently started the "Classic Cowboy" catagory to address many of your concerns and this catagory is growing rapidly in this area. I see this as a good thing and I'll admit that those that complete in this catagory are not going to be highly competitive with the Modern and Traditional catagory shooters. What I don't understand is why that appears to matter so much to folks like yourself. There's a place for everyone to compete at whatever level they choose and for the life of me, I can't understand why that rubs some folks the wrong way. I guess if you want to be the Top Gun/overall winner, then it does make sense to shoot "double fisted", but how does that really take away from the rest of us that shoot one handed or with a gun in both hands? I honestly respect your choice to shoot Duelist style and I'd be proud to posse up and shoot with you as well, but I must say that this whole thing has been blowen way out of proportion! Good luck and good shooting to all. Adios. “
Bison Bud
Thank you for your comments. My point is that modern tactics should not dominate a period pastime. Regardless of everything else, Overall is one only by period techniques, and has taken on the semblance of IPSC. Think about it, as a shooter who does it like it was done in the old times, you have to either give up a big reason to play this game in order to win, or just accept that you don’t have a chance. That is not right. Overall means overall, so the overall wins, the overall representation, the overall game is won by modern tactics in a period game. If I went to an IPSC match using a SAA, or even a stock 1911, then I’d have to conform to that style and accept the way they do it. Why isn’t the same courtesy followed here?
I’d be honored to shoot with you anytime.
Posted by Sodbuster Oliver Bend, SASS #46387 (Member # 17068) on March 23, 2004 10:23 PMMarch 23, 2004 10:23 PM:
“Joe you just have too much free time it would appear. When was a bisley used in the old west or even a movie? Oh that is right it was just target pistol with only few ever built not meant to be used to defend yourself or ride the range. Guess we should just outlaw them. “
I enjoy free time now and then, don’t you? As I remember, Pancho Villa used a Bisley. I find that the Bisley design hinders my performance in SASS style shooting, so I’ll be switching to either SAA or Schofield. As far as outlawing things, when did I say to outlaw anything? Modern tactics should not dominate a period sport.
Posted by Nubbins Colt #7802 (Member # 938) on March 23, 2004 10:28 PMMarch 23, 2004 10:28 PM:
“BAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!! Nicely done, Bisley Joe! I like it, even if you're wrong.”
No. I am actually correct.
“My general reply would be, to paraphrase The Bard, that methinks you doth protest too much.”
1. When you say "all the facts" you presume you have them, and nobody else does.
Try reading my quote again. I’ll even put it here to make it easier: “…all the facts are easy to see, in books and accounts, paintings and illustrations, even pictures, from at least 250 years of history.” By mentioning books etc. it means they were accumulated by others as well.
2. “You presume that you are the only one with an open mind and open eyes. But you are only using your eyes. Your mind, if it was truly open, would see that the shooters of long ago would be just as prone to realize that a two handed hold worked well, and was more accurate, just as we understand that today.”
Never said I was the only one with open eyes or mind. Two handed shooting has caught on because it was developed and taught to police well into the twentieth century. It was not a common idea that spread among most people.
“The fact that two handed shooting was seldom seen had more to do with how guns were carried and, therefore, normally used, etc., and had nothing to do with our forebears understanding of shooting.”
So you agree with me then.
Let’s not go off subject too much. Stopwatches etc. for timers, we should all reload, are irrelevant and ridiculous comments. I’m talking about a level playing field and playing as period game. Yoo obviously are reading into what I’m saying. Regardless, modern tactics should not rule a period game.
Posted by Def Dan Dreager, SASS #54479 (Member # 16416) on March 24, 2004 12:11 AMMarch 24, 2004 12:11 AM:
“No one knows for sure if people shot with one hand or two in the wild west. Could be like now where some shoot one way and some the other way. It really doesn't matter because you and I don't make the rules for SASS. When I joined SASS, I agreed to follow the rules set by those that run/own SASS. It's their club and they decide how things are run. If I didn't like their rules and thought I couldn't abide by them I wouldn't have joined. If you don't like their rules, join a club that sees things your way or start the Bisley Joe Shooting Society and make your own rules. If people flock to your club and SASS withers away, you'll be vindicated. “
We know for sure that they didn’t shoot in the IPSC way we see in Overall, so come on. The rules have been bent, twisted, and loopholed by some who care more about winning than playing the game. Regardless, modern tactics should not rule a period game.
Posted by BJT (Member # 16523) on March 24, 2004 01:24 AMMarch 24, 2004 01:24 AM:
“I saw one trophy for Overall and by God it was deserved by the awesome performance of the man who won it, a man that personifies the best of the sport.”
His performance may have been awesome, but modern tactics should not rule a period game.
“Given all of the awards that went to class specific achievement and the fact that only one was related to overall performance, I see no basis for any complaint by a reasonable person.”
Because those who would shoot in a period way in this period game don’t have a chance at winning that Overall, and thus representing this period sport. Modern tactics should not rule a period game.
“… I could hear the chearing for the 62 year old gunfighter who put the other 72 shooters behind him with an outstanding performance. I am damn proud of that shooter and would be ashamed of a sport that did not recognize such a performance.”
I agree. But I am ashamed to admit that those who shoot in a period way are second fiddle to the IPSC style that controls Overall.
“It takes a small and petty mind to be disturbed by the accomplishments of others.”
I agree. Since I believe in celebrating the accomplishments of others, my mind must therefore be both immense and of great broadness.
I would say that it takes a little bit of open-mindedness to realize that modern tactics should not rule a period game.
Posted by Def Dan Dreager, SASS #54479 (Member # 16416) on March 24, 2004 01:29 AMMarch 24, 2004 01:29 AM:
“Wish I had waited a bit before posting my previous reply. Nubbins Colt said it better.”
Don’t feel too bad. You both missed the point pretty equally. Which is, by the way: Modern tactics should not dominate a period sport.
Posted by El Cheeso Grande SASS# 56405 (Member # 17320) on March 24, 2004 02:34 AMMarch 24, 2004 02:34 AM:
“Wow! I didn't read the article in the chronicle, or the thread referred to, or even all of Bisley Joe's post. But I would like to comment on something that has occurred to me as a newbie in this sport/hobby. When reading match results in the magazines, it seems that the "overall winner" is always someone from the traditional or modern class. So two thoughts occur to me as a newbie: 1) why even make the distinction of "overall winner" when its always from the traditional or modern class? The distinction seems to lose all meaning. 2) the obvious message I get from this point is that if one wants to truly be a "competitor" in this Sport/hobby (which I don't), one has to shoot two-handed. So it seems like if one really prefers to shoot duelist, but also has a competitive nature and would like to see their name in the "overall winner" category someday, the chances are pretty slim. Just my naive observations.”
Your observations are RIGHT ON THE MONEY!!! You’ll see the accusations of a million things that weren’t said, but you’ll hardly see anyone really addressing the issue.
Posted by Culloden SASS# 40922 (Member # 8948) on March 24, 2004 03:19 AMMarch 24, 2004 03:19 AM:
“Hey, didn't that little girl in "True Grit" shoot that big ol' walker two-handed? Looks like a classic western film legitimization of the style to me!”
You said it: “little girl”. Maybe they should require a dress to shoot IPSC style? ![[Embarrassed]](file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/ADMINI%7E1/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msohtml1/01/clip_image007.gif)
“I don't think anyone could argue that two handed shooting has a tactical advantage in most situations, particularly with off-hand thumb-cocking a SA. That, and a lot of practice, probably explains why so many folks finishing top overall use that tactic since it's allowed by the rules and is as legit as anything else in this game.”
So you see what I’m trying to say. That modern tactical advantage is dominating a period game. To tell the people who shoot period to deal with it is really perverse.
Posted by Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440 (Member # 15966) on March 24, 2004 03:53 AMMarch 24, 2004 03:53 AM:
Ok, While I take issue with the notion that all the evidence points to folks not using two hands, I agree the one hand hold probably did dominate. It also occurs to me that in an era following on the heels of the time of dueling pistols, and an era that preceded the modern revolver and ammunition, making oneself as small a target as possible was just as important as firing accurately, if not moreso. Think about it. Many early guns were unreliable and innacurate. The one thing a man could control was how he presented to his opponent. If he could not take cover, he could at least stand sideways.Now, as to the use of modern, reliable replicas of old guns with modern reliable ammo (not BP cartridges that had been drug around a while and put away wet a bunch), it makes more tactical sense to get off a fast accurate shot (you can count on it more). That is to say, the advantage has moved to the offense, and away from the defense.The two-handed cocking is, it seems to me, the worst perversion of tradition. Had such a method taken hold, it is doubtful the DA revolver would have dominated the industry as it did. Who needs a "self cocking" gun if you already have both hands employed in cycling yer revolver?Now, as to shooting one vs two hands in our little game, I recognize that duelist is probably the most common old time method. I also recognize that as a lifetime handgun hunter and paper puncher, I do a whole bunch better with two mitts on the gun instead of one, and likely will continue to shoot that way. I cock the gun with my shooting hand, always have, and don't wanna do it the other way. Someday I MAY try duelist, just to see IF I can train myself to shoot one handed, but as a way to EASE INTO the game, importing as much of what I already did as possible just made sense. Why would I want to toss away the accuracy and physical skills I DO have when learning a game that already incorporates enough new (to me)elements I have to fret over (crossdraw shuffle, target order, etc).
America is a "Number one" oriented culture. We don't do "committees of equals" well. We have single office holder executives, not co-presidents, etc. So, I guess we will always wanna know who is "overall" champ. That's why auto racing developed IROC, to cite one example.
Adirondack Jack,
While you make some excellent points, you miss my main point: Modern tactics should not rule a period game. People’s inheritance, skin type, and cemeteries have nothing to do with this. I never said anything regarding handicapping anyone because of age or sex. You mentioned proletariat thinking, and that “the elite win”. You also mention the masses. Being a Constitutional Republic, America is based on INDIVIDUAL Liberties, not on the rights or wants of the masses. So we should have the “elite” gamers winning and everybody else should “get over it”? Not very American. I think there’s plenty of room for everybody here.
Posted by Carolina Lucky SASS#30020 (Member # 12859) on March 24, 2004 04:26 AMMarch 24, 2004 04:26 AM:
“Hickok's first recorded gunfight states he made his shot "two-handed". How can you say two handed shooting is a misrepresentation? Your argument is based on a faulty premise, and there is no evidence to support it other than your imagination. “
Hickock’s shooting of Tutt (Dave, not King), has been described as Hickock having “..rested gunhand upon left arm to steady it…” My argument involves the two handed cocking with offhand thumb technique, etc. and clearly mentions the validity of steadying your hand for distance shots. Your failure to realize this proves that your imagination (or something else) is preventing you from actually reading what I wrote.
Regardless, the point is that Modern tactics should not rule a period game.
Posted by Cohagen (Member # 17097) on March 24, 2004 06:19 AMMarch 24, 2004 06:19 AM:
“Joe, figurin the way you do, I wonder why they even bother to keep score. I think you would take a school class and mix all the A students and all the C students so that everyone ended up with a B. This is America, if someone wants to pay money to someone else to learn thier shooting skills, frankly its' none of your damned business.”
Nah, it’s figurin the way you want to see it that lets you can think like that. The point was that we are getting more and more into the win above all mentality and farther from the whole purpose of this game. What somebody pays for is none of my damned business, true. But it is my accursed business when some folks are polluting something I and others enjoy and then telling us to “just be happy” . Still, bottom line is that modern tactics should not rule a period game.
Posted by Harve Curry (Member # 7074) on March 24, 2004 06:24 AMMarch 24, 2004 06:24 AM:
“The Colt Bisley model was not introduced untill 1894, for target shooting at Bisley range in England. It was discontinued by 1912.”
The Bisley doesn’t give me any advantage. What about the Remington 1897?
“Untill you can document more of what you say.The preponderense of evidence suggests that the guns were heavy, the loads were hot, and people found that they could hit better with two hands.”
Really? Where is that evidence that the guns were heavy? We’ve all held and fired the pistols, so the evidence is that they are definitely not heavy. Where’s the evidence of two handed shooting for speed, especially in the way “we” do it? As far as the loads being hot, I agree. That’s why I mentioned the low power rounds. The evidence is well documented to support what I’m saying. You just have to look at it instead of using the absence of proof to justify you point .
Posted by Silver Sam, SASS #34718L (Member # 4948) on March 24, 2004 07:40 AMMarch 24, 2004 07:40 AM:
“Well as the Old Saying goes... "Opinions are like #$$holes, Everybody has One." Apparently Yours is a Very Big One.”
Well, I see why your not called Silver TONGUE! Ok, my turn! I’ll paraphrase Mark Twain:
Never argue with an idiot, other folks may not be able to tell the difference. Bye. ![[Wink]](file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/ADMINI%7E1/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msohtml1/01/clip_image008.gif)
Posted by Lucky Deuce 1951, SASS #35350 (Member # 10638) on March 24, 2004 08:32 AMMarch 24, 2004 08:32 AM:
“Well let me go on record as supporting you...
“Did people in the old west shoot two handed??? I am sure there probably were some....We can't say everybody shot one handed and used no other style. The only absolute is that there are no absolutes. However I would wager that a majority shot Duelist style... OK so in one or two recorded accounts someone shot using two hands (which by the way, did it say they thumbed the hammer??? Or used the Weaver Stance???) Does this mean Everybody did it that way??? Gee, were there 1800's era people who used the Point Shooting method or something similar? Probably...so does that mean we should all shoot this way??? “
“As for the power issue... I have always shot one handed.. Everything from .22 to .44 Magnum...Did the higher calibers kick...heck yeah but I still could handle it... Right now I shoot full power loads in my Remington .44's and use only one hand with no problem... So the excuse that because the guns were heavy and the loads were powerful so they had to use two hands doesn't hold water... (I have also shot a Walker one handed and if you want to talk about a heavy gun thats it)
“Even in the old westerns and tv shows (which seem to be a sort of Holy Icon for many) they didn't use a two handed shooting stance... So why do we do it now??? Yes, there are those who for health reasons have to but that doesn't mean everybody should...”
“I also agree about eliminating the Over-All or Top Shooter... The Categories are separate and should not compete with each other since there is no comparison. How many Frontiersmen or Frontier Cartridge shooters have won Top Shooter or World Champion???”
“This is one of the Sacred cows that seem to bring out the venom in others...unfortunately...”
Excellent points sir! I agree about eliminating overall. What I’ve realized (and heard from others) is that lots of folks get ticked because they thought they had assured a way to reign victorious, and eliminating Overall threatens their elitist holding in this game. Others just want to defend the apparent bigger group, and some are so busy being irate that they make up their minds about what’s being said before they finish reading. The reason I argue about this is because I really love this game! I don’t want to argue or upset people, but I’ll be damned if I let loophole jumpers tell me to “just have fun”, or to play somewhere else. I’m always amazed at the use of the absence of proof to support the IPSC shooting style in this game.
Posted by Sodbuster Oliver Bend, SASS #46387 (Member # 17068) on March 24, 2004 08:37 AMMarch 24, 2004 08:37 AM:
”The nice thing about America is we can still do some of what we want but the mentality of people like Joe certainly keeps narrowing what we can do down.
Think about it Joe. It is called FREEDOM.”
You mean like freedom to express my opinion? Freedom to point out that Modern tactics should not dominate a period sport?
Posted by Mike Bastian SASS #9352 L (Member # 11616) on March 24, 2004 09:22 AMMarch 24, 2004 09:22 AM:
“ My own personl read into your thoughts is that you are hung up on the fact that the "Traditional" shooters are "Gamers" and getting all the "Winnings". What happens if the sport starts being dominated by women? Will that be another excuse for those of us not in the "winners" bracket?”
Mr. Bastian, my point does not involve whether a shooter is male, female, young or old. I am saying that modern tactics should not rule a period game. The problem, which others have noted as well, is in the Overall category. I’ll win or lose fine, so long as I’m not forced to decide between playing the period game the period way and loose, or using anachronistic techniques to win.
I’m happy for those who win fame and glory, but it upsets me to see people using modern tactics to control a period sport while disenfranchising those who would compete in the period manner. Gamers are people who use loopholes and shortcuts right? That’s why I think that people using modern, anachronistic techniques in a period competition are gamers. Weaver stances, two hand holds cocking with the off-hand thumb, short stroke kits, these are all shortcuts. Let categories be where we compete.
“If the Colt Single Action Army was designed to be shot single handed, why did Colt completly redesign the grip and the hammer for the Bisley? Because the Bisley was designed to be shot one handed.”
Because the Bisley was designed as a target pistol, and because they were simply trying to compete with S&W. It was simply a variation on a design. Point is that Modern tactics should not rule a period game.
Posted by Flat Iron (Member # 12238) on March 24, 2004 09:29 AMMarch 24, 2004 09:29 AM:
“If we don't use a timer when you shoot and just declare you the match winner, will you finally shut up and go away?”
Can’t deal with a dissenting opinion aye? Now, you see, I’m trying to make a valid point and here you go telling me to “shut up” and to “go away”. That’s not too cowboy like! If I say I want to be your friend will you finally make a valid point and use your manners? ![[Razz]](file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/ADMINI%7E1/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msohtml1/01/clip_image009.gif)
Posted by Shoshone Slim, SASS #31347 (Member # 12478) on March 24, 2004 09:50 AMMarch 24, 2004 09:50 AM:
“Boy oh boy.....You sure told me Bisley Joe....wow, I'm still stingin'. I do apologize for the coward remark but I think I'll change it to a$$hole. And by the by it would be called C owboy A ction C rappin' Association or CACA and trust me you'd be CACA #1.”
Well now, Shoshone, I figured you for the type who would react like this. Not only do you lack the social skills and decency not to accuse people of such things as cowardice without knowing the facts, you don’t even have the class to apologize for your mistake. All this because I posted an opinion.
You should be “stingin”, most of all from the fact that you just proved yourself to be a rude and crass buffoon. As for the “CACA #1” comment, actually kind of funny, in a sophomoric sort of way. Where’d you get the idea; the local elementary playground, or did you actually come up with that all by your lonesome?
Modern tactics should not rule a period game.
Posted by Strawberry Lars SASS #22468 (Member # 349) on March 24, 2004 09:57 AMMarch 24, 2004 09:57 AM:
“It would seem that a truly thin skinned, opinionated person has made his presence known.”
Yeah, can you believe that Shoshone feller?!! WHEW!!
“Comments by Nubbins Colt seem quite appropriate.”
Which particular comments do you speak of sir?
Posted by Jake Mountain #35806 (Member # 15859) on March 24, 2004 12:24 PMMarch 24, 2004 12:24 PM:
”And I thought Driftwood Johnson had the most long winded post I had ever read. But at least his posts have some useful information.All I can say is some people sure do worry about things WAY TOO MUCH Hope you find what you want in life Mr. Bisley Joe.”
I’m sorry Driftwood, that you can’t get any useful information here and all. Try reading The Cat in the Hat. Thanks for your good wishes sir!
Posted by Constable Nelson #11784 (Member # 1779) on March 24, 2004 10:08 PMMarch 24, 2004 10:08 PM:
1. “EVERY category winner at EOT is a "World Champion"... That is now, and has always been the case.”
Maybe so, but few other than those who win Overall and shoot as in IPSC are given much recognition.
2. “Recognising the overall match winner, as an additional and separate award detracts in no way at all from 1.”
Oh, but it does! Overall has become representative of SASS and, with its IPSC mentality, is polluting this period game with modern tactics. Why not just have people winning in their class?
3. “There is NO SUCH THING as "Overall Class"!!”
Good point! Even less of a reason to keep it, since it’s only won by modern tactics in a period game.
Constable Nelson
(That's what the trophy and buckle say anywho)
”In winning FC [Frontier Cartridge World Champion 2001]that year I came 39th Overall.. I am ALSO extremely proud of that - because I am one of those "competitive types" you seem to dislike - yet that was quite irrelevant to the category win.... “
And you should be proud. I can’t get why you think I dislike competitive types? I am competitive. What I dislike is someone who uses modern tactics to dominate a period game and then tells the period shooters to go somewhere else if they don’t like it.
[ March 25, 2004, 12:36 PM: Message edited by: BisleyJoe 29738 ]
Posted by Shoshone Slim, SASS #31347 (Member # 12478) on March 25, 2004 12:55 PMMarch 25, 2004 12:55 PM:
quote:
Boy oh boy.....You sure told me Bisley Joe....wow, I'm still stingin'. I do apologize for the coward remark,though. It took you awhile but you did come forward. Still think you're full of crap but I'm sure the feeling is mutual, or am I assuming again, you know making an ass outta u and me. Also, if you don't know about old catalogs in the outhouse you ain't been in too many outhouses.
You wrote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Have fun missing - I enjoy hitting as many targets as possible as a Duelist
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not familiar with self deprecating humor, huh?
And by the by it would be called Cowboy A ction Crappin' Association or CACA and trust me you'd be CACA #1.
[ March 24, 2004, 01:08 PM: Message edited by: Shoshone Slim, SASS #31347 ]
Joe, you'll notice that on the 24th I went back and edited my previous post 22 hours before you responded. I did indeed remove the a$$hole remark and did apologize to you for the coward remark. Heck I even did apologize in the pre-edited post for it too. Although I think you too have proven an old Mark Twain adage and I paraphrase, it's better to remain silent and have people think that you're a fool than to open your mouth and prove it. And the CACA remark WAS intended to be humorus in a sophomoric way, as my daughter would say....well, duh. I would have thought that you'd be happy being #1 at something.(psst...that's a joke son, that's a joke). Lastly rude and crass buffoon is one of the nicer things that I've been called , although I think that you owe an apology to rude and crass buffoons everywhere.
[ March 25, 2004, 01:08 PM: Message edited by: Shoshone Slim, SASS #31347 ]
Posted by Badlands Bud (Member # 11464) on March 25, 2004 12:56 PMMarch 25, 2004 12:56 PM:
I would like to know where the IPSC remarks came from. The only reason I know what IPSC is is because one of the ranges I shoot cowboy at had a sign for them and I read it. I have shot exactly two rounds out of a semi-auto after a cowboy match. After all that would it surprise you to know that by your definition I am one of the biggest gamers you could ever meet. I would also like to know what this traditional is the only class that wins stuff is. Last weekend a 62 year old gunfighter won the match that Doc Shapiro Maryland State Champion, J.C. Boggs, one of the best shooters from my parts, and the World Junior Boy Champion were shooting at. I'm just not understanding where all of this comes from.
Posted by Shoshone Slim, SASS #31347 (Member # 12478) on March 25, 2004 12:58 PMMarch 25, 2004 12:58 PM:
Post Script:
Bisley Schmoe...I mean Joe...If you must post a Two Handed vs. One Answer Answer, then I have a favor to ask. Could you respond to me a little closer to the top...it's tiring scrolling down and I'm beginning to think that you don't like me.
Posted by Cowtown (Member # 11067) on March 25, 2004 01:45 PMMarch 25, 2004 01:45 PM:
After skimming through this post I have decided that I will not be able to type at the competitive level as some of you until I get a short stroke kit on my keyboard. Does anybody know who can do an action job on a Hewlett Packard, model # KB-9970?
COWTOWN
Posted by Dusty Feller SASS 20010 (Member # 15694) on March 25, 2004 01:52 PMMarch 25, 2004 01:52 PM:
This is a GAME, GAME, GAME, GAME, GAME, GAME !
I started shooting Traditional category and switched to Duelist then to Double Duelist a couple of years ago.
I shoot .45 caliber in both rifle and pistol and have had action jobs done on both. Shoot an unmodified 97.
Use holsters straight out of "Packing Iron" just because I like them.
Let us allow people to play the GAME in a safe manner, in the category they want, and to have as much fun as they want; JUST LET THEM DO IT WITHOUT RANCOR or any other negative comment.
If they want to win, they know what they must do to win; practise, practise, practise.
I will NEVER beat Evil Roy, China Camp, etc., and I simply don't care.
Ok, Ok, I am done here.
I ALWAYS get beat by the Traditional, Modern, and Gunfighter guys--DON'T CARE.
Posted by Mad Dane, SASS#5536 (Member # 782) on March 25, 2004 04:48 PMMarch 25, 2004 04:48 PM:
What a waste of bandwidth-Bisley Joe must be snowed in or sumpin.
Posted by BisleyJoe 29738 (Member # 9905) on March 25, 2004 10:08 PMMarch 25, 2004 10:08 PM:
Posted by Shoshone Slim, SASS #31347 (Member # 12478) on March 25, 2004 12:55 PMMarch 25, 2004 12:55 PM:
quote:
Boy oh boy.....You sure told me Bisley Joe....wow, I'm still stingin'. I do apologize for the coward remark,though. It took you awhile but you did come forward. Still think you're full of crap but I'm sure the feeling is mutual, or am I assuming again, you know making an ass outta u and me. Also, if you don't know about old catalogs in the outhouse you ain't been in too many outhouses.
You wrote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Have fun missing - I enjoy hitting as many targets as possible as a Duelist
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not familiar with self deprecating humor, huh?
And by the by it would be called Cowboy A ction Crappin' Association or CACA and trust me you'd be CACA #1.
[ March 24, 2004, 01:08 PM: Message edited by: Shoshone Slim, SASS #31347 ]
Joe, you'll notice that on the 24th I went back and edited my previous post 22 hours before you responded. I did indeed remove the a$$hole remark and did apologize to you for the coward remark. Heck I even did apologize in the pre-edited post for it too. Although I think you too have proven an old Mark Twain adage and I paraphrase, it's better to remain silent and have people think that you're a fool than to open your mouth and prove it. And the CACA remark WAS intended to be humorus in a sophomoric way, as my daughter would say....well, duh. I would have thought that you'd be happy being #1 at something.(psst...that's a joke son, that's a joke). Lastly rude and crass buffoon is one of the nicer things that I've been called , although I think that you owe an apology to rude and crass buffoons everywhere.
You chose to comment about a mistakenly omitted name by making a rude and baseless accusation. When I defended myself you insulted me further, no doubt to impress some of the bullies here. When you realized that you’d done something dishonorable you tried to apologize, but if you had any real feelings of remorse you wouldn’t have posted what you just did. You proved the above Twain paraphrase to the letter. Instead of continuing to lower this topic, please either make an intelligent contribution or have the self respect to leave it be.
Posted by Badlands Bud (Member # 11464) on March 25, 2004 12:56 PMMarch 25, 2004 12:56 PM:
I would like to know where the IPSC remarks came from. The only reason I know what IPSC is is because one of the ranges I shoot cowboy at had a sign for them and I read it. I have shot exactly two rounds out of a semi-auto after a cowboy match. After all that would it surprise you to know that by your definition I am one of the biggest gamers you could ever meet. I would also like to know what this traditional is the only class that wins stuff is. Last weekend a 62 year old gunfighter won the match that Doc Shapiro Maryland State Champion, J.C. Boggs, one of the best shooters from my parts, and the World Junior Boy Champion were shooting at. I'm just not understanding where all of this comes from.
Bison Bud, MAN! You are wrapped up in one thought. Nobody is trashing IPSC dude! It’s just that that mentality doesn’t belong here! Modern tactics should not dominate a period game.
Posted by Dusty Feller SASS 20010 (Member # 15694) on March 25, 2004 01:52 PMMarch 25, 2004 01:52 PM:
This is a GAME, GAME, GAME, GAME, GAME, GAME !
A PERIOD game, so why not let everybody, especially the period players, have equal share?
Let us allow people to play the GAME in a safe manner, in the category they want, and to have as much fun as they want; JUST LET THEM DO IT WITHOUT RANCOR or any other negative comment.
Agreed! Let’s get rid of Overall.
If they want to win, they know what they must do to win; practise, practise, practise.
So why don’t they just play period period period in a period game? Or at least not dominate the top wins?
I will NEVER beat Evil Roy, China Camp, etc., and I simply don't care.
Fine if you don’t care, but I, and others, do.
Posted by Mad Dane, SASS#5536 (Member # 782) on March 25, 2004 04:48 PMMarch 25, 2004 04:48 PM:
What a waste of bandwidth-Bisley Joe must be snowed in or sumpin.
Just because I don’t shut up aye? Guess the flaming and only what YOU agree with is a proper use of bandwidth aye? You must have some problem remembering manners. I’m trying to clear up mistaken assumptions and have a discussion. If you can’t handle it then nobody is forcing you to participate. You must have some problem remembering manners.
Posted by Irish Red O'Toole, #48939 (Member # 13828) on March 25, 2004 10:23 PMMarch 25, 2004 10:23 PM:
quote:
Originally posted by BisleyJoe 29738:
[QB] Fine if you don’t care, but I, and others, do.
Apparently not enough of you "that care" to make a huge difference. I've read a bunch more "It don't matter to me" posts than "we need to change this" posts. You may not think that majority rules is right, but in a business you go with what works. The current climate works. Tilt at all the windmills you want but all you'll end up doing is proving that old Mark Twain adage.
Posted by Sidekick (Member # 13177) on March 25, 2004 10:44 PMMarch 25, 2004 10:44 PM:
Bisley Joe you said yourself that you want to beat shooters like Evil Roy China Camp etc. well bud I am here to tell you that you probably couldn't beat these fine shooters no matter what kind of weapons or tactics you used even if you used modern tactics and they all shot ohe handed with stock guns and blackpowder. But I am willing to bet that that doesn't trip their trigger so to speak.So just give it up you will never be in the winners circle so quit trying to change the rules so that you will.
[ March 25, 2004, 10:52 PM: Message edited by: Sidekick ]
Posted by Shoshone Slim, SASS #31347 (Member # 12478) on March 26, 2004 04:35 AMMarch 26, 2004 04:35 AM:
B.J., you do crack me up. Thanks for putting me at the top though, appreciate that. You're right, I thought about it and edited because that was the right thing to do. Doesn't mean that I still don't feel that way,but would probably add 'pompous'. Also, it was the tenor of your post more than your opinion that I found offensive. By the way, I'll need you to sign a release because I fashioned a mold based on your picture and would like to market a line of dash board Bisley Joe's to all of the SASS pards because you obviously are sooooo superior to all of us little yokel's that we should raise you up and worship you. ALL HAIL BISLEY JOE.....KEEPER OF ALL THAT IS SASS CORRECT!!! By the way is that cross getting heavey yet?
[ March 26, 2004, 04:39 AM: Message edited by: Shoshone Slim, SASS #31347 ]
Posted by Bubba Outta Carolinas 53761 (Member # 16075) on March 26, 2004 05:10 AMMarch 26, 2004 05:10 AM:
Well,well,well.....check the timer.....YOUR 15 MINUTES IS STILL UP*****but thanks for YOUR OPINIONsssssssssssss*****Vaya Con Dios*****
Posted by Dusty Feller, SASS#20010 (Member # 4876) on March 26, 2004 07:40 AMMarch 26, 2004 07:40 AM:
Once more into the fray !!!!!!!!!
If this is to be a true "period" game, then:
We should all use actual Colts (first version) with black powder only.
Whe should all use actual Winchesters, et al, with black powder only.
We should all use 97's made before 1995, 1887's etc. with black powder only.
We should wear wool underwear and outer clothes. (If an internal mod of a gun is not OK, then an internal mod of underwear is not OK)
Ok, ok, now I have taken it to the point of absurdity !
The point is that we have to have rules made by somebody and many people will not like the rules. This is true for anything; including SASS.
I shoot pretty period. Except that I shoot .45 Ruger Bisleys, a .45 Uberti 66, and a 12 gauge 97 made in 1916.
I use a copy of holsters right out of Packing Iron, well almost !
I do like to win, and have won my share of local, state, and regional shoots. If I win=great as
I have done i,t perhaps, against .38's and 16 gauge shot guns. If I don't win=great as I had lots of fun and the guys/gals who are faster beat me.
Posted by Dusty Feller, SASS#20010 (Member # 4876) on March 26, 2004 07:43 AMMarch 26, 2004 07:43 AM:
HEY, HEY, HEY, HEY
Everybody is entitled to an opinion without others attacking them because of it.
If you disagree, OK. Just do it in a polite manner.
I fully disagree with the thrust of this thread; I just wont attack the guy who wrote it.
Posted by Maple Sugar (Member # 5951) on March 26, 2004 08:05 AMMarch 26, 2004 08:05 AM:
So, let me see if I understand Bisley Joe's basic gist.
He doesn't want to eliminate the two-handed categories or any categories. He does believe that everyone should be allowed to shoot as they prefer. (Although he does seem to think that any person of "honor" would choose a one-handed category.)
But he's upset that "modern tactics are dominating a period game." Now, although both halves of this premise are debatable -- whether two-hand is "modern tactic," and whether CAS per SASS rules is in fact a "period game" -- I'm willing to stipulate what I believe is Joe's underlying complaint: that the people who choose one-handed categories have no chance of "dominating," that is, winning the overall prize. (Oh, I just realized that a third element of Bisley Joe's premise is debatable -- that is, the question of whether the two-handers win all the overall prizes, AND the question of whether winning the title of "overall" constitutes "dominating the sport.")
Here's what I'm not sure about. Since Bisley Joe has responded here that he *doesn't* want to eliminate the two-handed category or force anyone to shoot a particular way, what exactly is he suggesting that will change which shooting style "dominates" the sport? If the suggestion is doing away with the "overall" awards, well, that suggestion has often been made and considered, but it doesn't usually entail belittling the people and/or shooting categories who have won it in the past, or headlines about how what the "point" of SASS is.
But it seems to me, after reading all of the posts in both threads on the topic, that what Bisley Joe is advocating is some kind of system that would give the one-handed categories the advantage in attaining the overall award. He's quite clear that he wants to WIN that award, not eliminate it. BJ, is this what you're wanting -- a scoring system that somehow rewards one-handed shooters with "style points" (deducted from their time) or handicaps two-handed shooters with penalties (added to their time), so that the one-handed categories would have the advantage in competing for the overall award, and the top shooters would then naturally migrate by choice to those categories? I wouldn't want such a system, you understand, but it's the only logical way I can see to implement the change you're longing for.
Please confirm or clarify whether this is what you'd like to see.
Oh, and if it is what you're looking for, then please retract all your negative comments about "Gamers," because to my eyes, the ultimate "Gamer" is a person who seeks to have the rules of the game modified in order to increase their own chances of winning prizes.
Maple Sugar
Posted by Irish Red O'Toole, #48939 (Member # 13828) on March 26, 2004 09:03 AMMarch 26, 2004 09:03 AM:
Maple Sugar,
You surely do have a way of slicing through the yards of bull feces to get to the root of the issue. My hat's off to ya, ma'am.
See ya at Coto Sunday?
Posted by Flat Iron (Member # 12238) on March 26, 2004 09:45 AMMarch 26, 2004 09:45 AM:
Maple Sugar you sure are SWEET!!!
By the way has anybody else noticed that Weaselpiss and Bisley Joe never appear on the Wire at the same time? Could it be that Bisley Joe is really ????
Flat Iron
Posted by Nasty Newt # 7365 (Member # 93) on March 26, 2004 03:07 PMMarch 26, 2004 03:07 PM:
I believe you may be onto something, Maple Sugar. So, Bisley Joe, if you were king of the world, how would SASS be different than it is now? And please don't say modern tactics wouldn't dominate a period sport. What parts of the status quo would be out, and what changes would be in? Thanks. Nasty Newt
Posted by BisleyJoe 29738 (Member # 9905) on March 26, 2004 05:41 PMMarch 26, 2004 05:41 PM:
Obviously you all know what I mean and what I was trying to say. You have succeeded in getting the other string shut down through the use of profanity and sheer flaming. It’s only a matter of time before this gets shut down too. I have never seen so many dishonorable and cowardly people as on this, and the other, post. While I spoke of gamers and loopholes I mentioned no names, and at worse, responded with sarcasm. Still, many of you chose to make personal attacks instead of arguing the issues: The mark of small “men”.
In real life none of you would have the guts to even remotely approach the total lack of respect that you have shown. Then again, the law would back you up, so you probably would say lots of things from behind a cop. Regardless, by your actions you have not only proven the extent of your cowardice and sycophant mentality, but have made it almost impossible for folks to discuss things like men. I will not fight anyone over this, nor threaten, like some of those you band together with have done. I will not sit here and make unwarranted personal attacks, like many of those you call “gentlemen” do. Yet you will still call names and make false accusations. This is of no surprise, as many of you haven’t the slightest idea of how to behave like men.
One major consolation is having met some pards through this that are truly in the Spirit of the Game. Another is that despite your sophomoric attempts at bullying me into silence it took your profanity, your rudeness, and your cowardly behavior to end the string by getting it shut down. Nothing can change the fact that what you have done is unbecoming of an honorable person. Deep inside you know that you have simply jumped on the bandwagon to fall in with the in crowd. In the end, you have, on record, shown your true colors: those of you who behaved like cowardly buffoons, and those who were truly man enough to discuss an issue without resulting to flaming and profanity.
Bisley Joe
29738
Posted by TENNESSEE DEADEYE SASS# 26785 (Member # 9992) on March 26, 2004 06:11 PMMarch 26, 2004 06:11 PM:
Bisley Joe, The SASS shooters handbook plainly says this is a fantasy sport. If you want to be authentic you need to leave SASS and join NCOWS if they'd have you! I'll bet your a liberal and a Democrat to boot. You must beleive that everyone should win regardless of how much they choose to pratice, what type of guns they shoot. B.J. I don't beleive you were alive 125 years ago so how do you know how every cowboy shot his colt? So get a grip! Not a gripe!
[ March 26, 2004, 06:12 PM: Message edited by: TENNESSEE DEADEYE SASS# 26785 ]
Posted by Shoshone Slim, SASS #31347 (Member # 12478) on March 26, 2004 06:15 PMMarch 26, 2004 06:15 PM:
Noooooooooooobodyyyyy knooooooooows the trouble Joe's seeeeeeeen, Nooooooobodyyyyyy knoooooooows his sorroooooooow........... ![[Frown]](file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/ADMINI%7E1/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msohtml1/01/clip_image010.gif)
I hear that Mel's makin' a new movie and he's callin' it "The Passion of The Bisley".
Putz.
[ March 26, 2004, 06:25 PM: Message edited by: Shoshone Slim, SASS #31347 ]
Posted by Guns Garrett SASS# 49238 (Member # 15841) on March 26, 2004 06:41 PMMarch 26, 2004 06:41 PM:
I have followed this thread, and the other for the past couple days, and I just thought I'd throw in my $0.02 ... BJ preferrs to shoot one-handed, and doesn't really appear to have a problem with anyone shooting two-handed, I'm supposing. What appears to be his disagreement is that there will probably never be a one-handed shooter (or gunfighter) that will ever win Overall Champion. Since he does not choose to shoot two-handed, whether it be for personal, historical or aesthetic reasons, then he feels he (or any other shooter of his style) can never make Overall Champion. In other words, "I can't have fun if I know I won't win the Overall, unless I become a gamey, two-handed weasle." As for me, sometimes I shoot traditional, sometimes duelist, and have tried gunfighter occasionally. Whish do I prefer...? Depends on the mood I'm in at the time I register. In a monthly club match I may do all three. Sometimes I'll even shoot with one pistol and reload on the clock, JUST FOR FUN
Posted by Nasty Newt # 7365 (Member # 93) on March 26, 2004 06:41 PMMarch 26, 2004 06:41 PM:
Just want to make sure I understand this, Bisley Joe. When you opine that 50 - 60 percent of the people in SASS are doing it wrong, that is expressing your opinion. But when anyone disagrees with you, that is a personal attack. How handy for you.
At one point in this discussion I admired your sand. I no longer do.
Posted by Gold Canyon Kid #43974 (Member # 11280) on March 26, 2004 07:27 PMMarch 26, 2004 07:27 PM:
Bisley Joe does this stunt yearly. If SASS hadn't done a couple of resets you could look back at history. Only change this time is that he got slipped into the CC, waited til everyone read his unsigned bomb, then came in proud like and claimed credit. Credit is due, his article was the stupidest ever published in the CC. BJs attitude that he had every right to his opinion and when others put forth theirs tell him what a dumb cowboy he his, he gets angry and calls us names. Let's start a lottery and see how long this thread continues. He has only moved his arguments here. My entry is by noon tomorrow this thread will be locked or eliminated-I sure hope so. It is an embarassment to all SASS shooters everywhere, who go to shoots, abide by the rules, awards are made and some jerk comes by and says we are all doing it wrong.
Posted by Bubba Outta Carolinas 53761 (Member # 16075) on March 26, 2004 07:33 PMMarch 26, 2004 07:33 PM:
Lord grant me the courage to change the things I can change,the patience to accept the things I can not change,and the wisdom to know the difference.*****Vaya Con Dios
Posted by Irish Red O'Toole, #48939 (Member # 13828) on March 26, 2004 07:57 PMMarch 26, 2004 07:57 PM:
Dear Bisley,
It's hard to know where to start with a temper tantrum like that last one. Knowing now that this is a fairly regular occurance of yours, I now relegate you to the place in the big scheme of things you so richly merit......my total lack of caring what you think.
Oh, Gold Canyon Kid, I'll take 3:00PM Pacific time in the pool.
[ March 26, 2004, 08:09 PM: Message edited by: Irish Red O'Toole, #48939 ]
Posted by Kid Raven (Member # 16756) on March 26, 2004 08:40 PMMarch 26, 2004 08:40 PM:
BJ you can't possibly know how little I care what you think about anything.
Posted by BisleyJoe 29738 (Member # 9905) on March 27, 2004 01:43 AMMarch 27, 2004 01:43 AM:
Posted by TENNESSEE DEADEYE SASS# 26785 (Member # 9992) on March 26, 2004 06:11 PMMarch 26, 2004 06:11 PM:
Bisley Joe, The SASS shooters handbook plainly says this is a fantasy sport. If you want to be authentic you need to leave SASS and join NCOWS if they'd have you! I'll bet your a liberal and a Democrat to boot. You must beleive that everyone should win regardless of how much they choose to pratice, what type of guns they shoot. B.J. I don't beleive you were alive 125 years ago so how do you know how every cowboy shot his colt? So get a grip! Not a gripe!
We already covered that dude. Go back and read , read some history even, maybe you'll learn something, because modern tactics should not dominate a period game, and SASS is a period game, whether you admiti it or not.
In the rule book I read:
“Cowboy Action Shooting™ is a multifaceted shooting sport in which contestants compete with firearms typical of those used in the taming of the Old West: single action revolvers, lever action rifles, and side by side double barreled, pre-1899 pump, or lever action shotguns. The shooting competition is staged in a unique, characterized, ‘Old West’ style.”
The truly unique aspect of Cowboy Action Shooting™ is the requirement placed on authentic period or western screen dress. Each participant is required to adopt a shooting alias appropriate to a character or profession of the late 19th century, or a Hollywood western star, and develop a costume accordingly.
American history buffs and serious shooters alike agree the use of vintage firearms, authentic costuming, unique targets, and fast action make Cowboy Action Shooting™ one of the most interesting of all shooting sports for both spectator and contestant.
It is the intention and hope of SASS these requirements will serve to preserve and protect
Cowboy Action Shooting™ from the gimmickry and technical gamesmanship that have had such a negative effect on other shooting disciplines.
About the Spirit of the Game:
Competing in “The Spirit of the Game” means you fully participate in what the competition asks. You do not look for ways to create an advantage out of what is or is not stated as a rule or shooting procedure. Some folks would call “The Spirit of the Game” nothing more than good sportsmanship. Whatever you call it, if you don’t have it, Cowboy Action Shooting™ is not your game.
There are statements throughout such as
“The firearm must “look” period.”
“General “Spirit of the Game “ guidance … if you have to ask permission to use something because it offers you a competitive advantage, the response will nearly always be “no”.”
Bandoleers, cartridge belts, and pouches must be of traditional design.
Modern drop pouches, combat-style shotgun loops, wrist or forearm bandoleers, and such are not allowed.
Electronic timers are generally used for timing all SASS events, but stopwatches may be used.
(Hey, didn’t somebody ask me “then why don’t we use a stopwatch?” or something of that nature?)
CLOTHING and ACCOUTERMENTS
Cowboy Action Shooting™ is a combination of historical re-enactment and Saturday morning at the matinee. Participants may choose the style of costume they wish to wear, but all clothing must be typical of the late 19th century, a B western movie, or Western television series. SASS puts a great deal of emphasis on costuming because it adds so much to the uniqueness of our game and helps create a festive, informal atmosphere that supports the friendly, fraternal feeling we encourage in our competitors.
OH OH! You are wrong!
Posted by Shoshone Slim, SASS #31347 (Member # 12478) on March 26, 2004 06:15 PMMarch 26, 2004 06:15 PM:
Noooooooooooobodyyyyy knooooooooows the trouble Joe's seeeeeeeen, Nooooooobodyyyyyy knoooooooows his sorroooooooow...........
I hear that Mel's makin' a new movie and he's callin' it "The Passion of The Bisley".
Putz.
There ya go Shoshone, prove your mettle. I picture you kind of like Johny Tyler, Madcap, that brave fellow in the film Tombstone. Anyway, thanks for the compliment, you keep proving your character.
Posted by Guns Garrett SASS# 49238 (Member # 15841) on March 26, 2004 06:41 PMMarch 26, 2004 06:41 PM:
I have followed this thread, and the other for the past couple days, and I just thought I'd throw in my $0.02 ... BJ preferrs to shoot one-handed, and doesn't really appear to have a problem with anyone shooting two-handed, I'm supposing. What appears to be his disagreement is that there will probably never be a one-handed shooter (or gunfighter) that will ever win Overall Champion. Since he does not choose to shoot two-handed, whether it be for personal, historical or aesthetic reasons, then he feels he (or any other shooter of his style) can never make Overall Champion. In other words, "I can't have fun if I know I won't win the Overall, unless I become a gamey, two-handed weasle." As for me, sometimes I shoot traditional, sometimes duelist, and have tried gunfighter occasionally. Whish do I prefer...? Depends on the mood I'm in at the time I register. In a monthly club match I may do all three. Sometimes I'll even shoot with one pistol and reload on the clock, JUST FOR FUN
Nope, it’s a PERIOD GAME as well.
Posted by Nasty Newt # 7365 (Member # 93) on March 26, 2004 06:41 PMMarch 26, 2004 06:41 PM:
Just want to make sure I understand this, Bisley Joe. When you opine that 50 - 60 percent of the people in SASS are doing it wrong, that is expressing your opinion. But when anyone disagrees with you, that is a personal attack. How handy for you.
At one point in this discussion I admired your sand. I no longer do.
Nope, you know as well as I do that I’ve even thanked people for their gentlemanly disagreements. You simply have selective righteousness. You never admired me, c’mon now.
Posted by Gold Canyon Kid #43974 (Member # 11280) on March 26, 2004 07:27 PMMarch 26, 2004 07:27 PM:
Bisley Joe does this stunt yearly. If SASS hadn't done a couple of resets you could look back at history. Only change this time is that he got slipped into the CC, waited til everyone read his unsigned bomb, then came in proud like and claimed credit. Credit is due, his article was the stupidest ever published in the CC. BJs attitude that he had every right to his opinion and when others put forth theirs tell him what a dumb cowboy he his, he gets angry and calls us names. Let's start a lottery and see how long this thread continues. He has only moved his arguments here. My entry is by noon tomorrow this thread will be locked or eliminated-I sure hope so. It is an embarassment to all SASS shooters everywhere, who go to shoots, abide by the rules, awards are made and some jerk comes by and says we are all doing it wrong.
No Gold Kanyon, that’s not it. You simply like to harangue and harass people into quitting. I actually think it’s very telling how you and your buds have behaved. It’s always you same flamers flaming on the wire. As I said before, you haven't once said a thing to those who have used profanity here and in other places. I think Black Hills Blackey actually mentioned you on the other post. People know Kid, by your actions, just what you really represent. So keep making false accusations and supporting the flamers, because pard, that's as high as you can get. See ya!
Posted by Irish Red O'Toole, #48939 (Member # 13828) on March 26, 2004 07:57 PMMarch 26, 2004 07:57 PM:
Dear Bisley,
It's hard to know where to start with a temper tantrum like that last one. Knowing now that this is a fairly regular occurance of yours, I now relegate you to the place in the big scheme of things you so richly merit......my total lack of caring what you think.
Now now Irish! Temper tantrum is the cowardly way you and your pards behaved. I just stated an opinion and defended it. The only problem was that you couldn’t harass me into silence. You know I am correct. I know you care. You MUST! Oh how sad, I’ve lost a gamer friend. We all know that SASS is part historical reenactment, part competition, and part fantasy. It was started to get away from the IPSC theme: to allow a friendly, family oriented way for folks to compete while emulating the era of the Old West and even some of the films. Well, it seems to me that the reenactment part is being sacrificed to the gods of competition. Slowly but surely those who saw the opportunity to use “loopholes” in the rules have practically turned SASS into IPSC with Cowboy gear, and even that is fading. It would stand to reason that, coming into a sport called COWBOY Action Shooting, one would realize that it required playing the game as closely as possible to Cowboy, namely the late nineteenth century. However, here we are with IPSC style shooting dominating Overall and major matches, and those who would play the game as Cowboy Action Shooting being forced to either give it up and shoot in a modern style to have a chance at winning, or simply just not competing in the major matches that represent our sport.
Posted by Kid Raven (Member # 16756) on March 26, 2004 08:40 PMMarch 26, 2004 08:40 PM:
BJ you can't possibly know how little I care what you think about anything.
Now, Kid Raven, that hurts. Don’t leave just because you can’t argue a valid point. Don’t reduce yourself to the level of gamer. You care enough to write me, so either you really do care or you just have a sick need to flap your little yap.
I admit I was wrong. I wrote that last post thinking it would mean something. BUT I forgot the level of those I was speaking to. Ya’ll have hit rock bottom and started digging with a vengeance.
Anyway, back to what’s relevant. It’s funny ‘cause I was speaking to an old SASS member who has been away for a while. He mentioned how SASS has indeed been getting worse over the years, how it did indeed start as a period game, how saying that it was started as IPSC with Cowboy guns is simply a lie. SASS is loosing the Cowboy in Cowboy Action Shooting, both through the domination of a period game by modern tactics, and through letting so many in that it’s getting watered down. But he also mentioned something funny: that it seems some of the newer people are more apt to defend the Spirit of the Game than older ones. Maybe because there’s been less kissing up? He also mentioned a great line from Monte Walsh "I'll not spit on my whole life". And it made me think, how those folks who have attacked everybody who has actually defended the Spirit of the Game are the real problems. And that’s what you all do, you stand for nothing but your own pathetic kissing up club. You don’t even preserve your own heritage, and your thoughts on being Americans revolve around bullying and patting each other on your “backs”. I’d laugh if a good club like SASS wasn’t being destroyed. Anyhow, whether or not this thread gets killed, I’ve honestly learned a great deal, laughed quite a bit, and seen your true colors. I can honestly say that you have done a great job at proving my point, and more: that SASS is a PERIOD game, that it’s being destroyed by gamers and sycophants like yourselves, and that there are indeed some good folks out there that support the Spirit of the Game. Dude’s, as I said, thanks for proving my point!
Here are some of the rules again. Next time you lie about ‘em, at least you’ll have it in your conscience. Never mind, that would take actual ethics. I’ll put the rules down anyway though, since you don’t really get it:
In the rule book I read:
About SASS:
“Cowboy Action Shooting™ is a multifaceted shooting sport in which contestants compete with firearms typical of those used in the taming of the Old West: single action revolvers, lever action rifles, and side by side double barreled, pre-1899 pump, or lever action shotguns. The shooting competition is staged in a unique, characterized, ‘Old West’ style.”
The truly unique aspect of Cowboy Action Shooting™ is the requirement placed on authentic period or western screen dress. Each participant is required to adopt a shooting alias appropriate to a character or profession of the late 19th century, or a Hollywood western star, and develop a costume accordingly.
American history buffs and serious shooters alike agree the use of vintage firearms, authentic costuming, unique targets, and fast action make Cowboy Action Shooting™ one of the most interesting of all shooting sports for both spectator and contestant.
It is the intention and hope of SASS these requirements will serve to preserve and protect
Cowboy Action Shooting™ from the gimmickry and technical gamesmanship that have had such a negative effect on other shooting disciplines.
About the Spirit of the Game:
Competing in “The Spirit of the Game” means you fully participate in what the competition asks. You do not look for ways to create an advantage out of what is or is not stated as a rule or shooting procedure. Some folks would call “The Spirit of the Game” nothing more than good sportsmanship. Whatever you call it, if you don’t have it, Cowboy Action Shooting™ is not your game.
There are statements throughout such as
“The firearm must “look” period.”
“General “Spirit of the Game “ guidance … if you have to ask permission to use something because it offers you a competitive advantage, the response will nearly always be “no”.”
Bandoleers, cartridge belts, and pouches must be of traditional design.
Modern drop pouches, combat-style shotgun loops, wrist or forearm bandoleers, and such are not allowed.
Electronic timers are generally used for timing all SASS events, but stopwatches may be used.
(Hey, didn’t somebody ask me “then why don’t we use a stopwatch?” or something of that nature?)
CLOTHING and ACCOUTERMENTS
Cowboy Action Shooting™ is a combination of historical re-enactment and Saturday morning at the matinee. Participants may choose the style of costume they wish to wear, but all clothing must be typical of the late 19th century, a B western movie, or Western television series. SASS puts a great deal of emphasis on costuming because it adds so much to the uniqueness of our game and helps create a festive, informal atmosphere that supports the friendly, fraternal feeling we encourage in our competitors.
I like: Competing in “The Spirit of the Game” means you fully participate in what the competition asks. You do not look for ways to create an advantage out of what is or is not stated as a rule or shooting procedure. Some folks would call “The Spirit of the Game” nothing more than good sportsmanship. Whatever you call it, if you don’t have it, Cowboy Action Shooting™ is not your game.” Period game guys, not IPSC. Hasta Manana! Your pard, Bisley Joe.
[ March 27, 2004, 01:45 AM: Message edited by: BisleyJoe 29738 ]
Posted by Cuts Crooked, SASS #36914 (Member # 6120) on March 27, 2004 06:07 AMMarch 27, 2004 06:07 AM:
Like it not Joe, The rules Do NOT forbid use of both hands, that's what traditional IS in SASS. (yer only quoting PART of the rule book there, and it's the part you feel supports your argument, that won't wash in the end, and I suspect that you know it.)
You've not answered Ms Maple Suger, and you never commented on my final post to the other thread. I'm not sure why, but it would appear that yer after the pleasure of strirring the fire, rather than dealing with finding answers. I hope I'm wrong on that score.
Finally, as I told you elsewhere, in my opinion you are not going to be able to achieve what you claim to be after. Continued focusing on this issue, in this format, is simply devisive and will only provoke bad feelings. I think you need a long heart to heart with yourself about what you want and how to go about achieving it. I gave you my best advise in the other thread, but I can't make you take it....
Good Luck.
Posted by Grulla Rider, SASS #54052 (Member # 16360) on March 27, 2004 07:14 AMMarch 27, 2004 07:14 AM:
Stop! Stop!
My sides are hurting from laughter.
Also please keep posts a little shorter.
I only have a dial-up connection and these posts take for ever to load.
Posted by Sisquoc 39167 (Member # 9171) on March 27, 2004 07:37 AMMarch 27, 2004 07:37 AM:
quote:
Originally posted by Lucky Deuce 1951, SASS #35350:
This is one of the Sacred cows that seem to bring out the venom in others...unfortunately...
Sacred cows make great hamburgers.
Posted by Irish Red O'Toole, #48939 (Member # 13828) on March 27, 2004 08:29 AMMarch 27, 2004 08:29 AM:
quote:
Originally posted by BisleyJoe 29738:
BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH...nothing new to say so I repeat the mantra until they accept it
Joe, you aren't interested in debate, just forwarding your own agenda. From what otheres have said, this occurs on a regular basis. That's not someone interested in gentlemanly discourse. That's a fella that likes to kick over the ant hill to watch the show. Not "The Spirit of the Game".
You've had your 15 minutes. We've all heard you and we've (for the most part) dismissed your opinions. Accept it or not, that's the way it is.
If you don't like what you see happening in SASS, try something else or get the rules changed to fit your "vision".
Also, you've twice now accused me of being a coward and trying to silence your opinion. If you had read anything I had posted, you would have seen I defended your right to post your opinion. Not once but three times. Who looks the part of the coward now?
Finally, you never, not once, addressed any of the other relavant points brought up. Such as:
1. Judge Roy said SASS was originally IPSC with cowboy guns.
2. The first World Champ used a Ruger Blackhawk w/adjustable sights in .30 Carbine and two-handed to win.
So, just these two points alone show your whole basis of argument are moot. These elements have been with us from the beginning.
You've had your 15 minutes. Time to get off the horse and let him die.
[ March 27, 2004, 08:31 AM: Message edited by: Irish Red O'Toole, #48939 ]
Posted by Ethan Cord (Member # 1172) on March 27, 2004 08:41 AMMarch 27, 2004 08:41 AM:
If I recall this game correctly we are emulating the gunfighters and others of the Old West.
Since the main complaint held by the head knower of all knowers of all things achronistic is the elimination of an overall winner so as to remove modern tactics from a period game, his premise gives rise to the thought that mayhaps we have missed our chance to be period correct.
Yes sir perhaps you have figured out that to be loyal to the true spirit of the old west we need to go back and rewrite all the history telling of gunfights and daring deeds of men with the bark on. You have convinced me! I am sure that all those stories were nothing more than tall tales, no one really was shot, and heaven forbid I feel flush and woozy just thinking about it, no one really died!
That would mean an OVERALL WINNER , the man who walked away after sucessfully going mano a mano with a foe he had to presume could get the better of him.
Sorry to break this to you, revisionist history will not change the facts of what truely unfolded on the vast Western frontiers. Not all of it was pretty and nice and there were no soccor moms that passed out 1st place ribbons to everyone on each team. Lets all hug, gee were all the best!Yeah were all special, just like everyone else. Slow down Roy, you know Joey can't run as fast as you and he hates to come to the practices, it just wouldn't be fair if you beat him!
Also you may wish to check out some of the pitures on pages 42-44 of "The Gunfighters" it's a compilation of Western History published by Time-Life books. You will have to have this re-written as well becasue it shows some pretty extreme exterior modifications to pistols in an effort to shave a split second of time that would perhaps become the difference between life and death.
Let's not even get started on the real stories of many of the gunfighters, the fact that some fired from ambush...........
Well I am afraid it might be more than you could bear..... you're no daisy at all!!!
Posted by Trapdoor Billy (Member # 12012) on March 27, 2004 12:24 PMMarch 27, 2004 12:24 PM:
quote:
Originally posted by Gold Canyon Kid #43974:
My entry is by noon tomorrow this thread will be locked or eliminated-I sure hope so.
You need to be more specific as to time zones, but in any event, wrong - AGAIN.
Posted by Gold Canyon Kid #43974 (Member # 11280) on March 27, 2004 02:44 PMMarch 27, 2004 02:44 PM:
Trapdoor Billy, what is wrong again? This cowboy sure is wrong, that should be plain for all to read. BJ is a troll that somehow SASS let loose outside the Wire and into the CC.
Posted by BisleyJoe 29738 (Member # 9905) on March 27, 2004 06:18 PMMarch 27, 2004 06:18 PM:
Posted by Cuts Crooked, SASS #36914 (Member # 6120) on March 27, 2004 06:07 AMMarch 27, 2004 06:07 AM:
Like it not Joe, The rules Do NOT forbid use of both hands, that's what traditional IS in SASS. (yer only quoting PART of the rule book there, and it's the part you feel supports your argument, that won't wash in the end, and I suspect that you know it.)
The rules state that: “Cowboy Action Shooting™ is a combination of historical re-enactment and Saturday morning at the matinee.” No one shot two handed in either unless it was an accuracy shot at distance, a woman shooting, or someone weak. In addition, I never said to forbid two handed shooting. Please read what I wrote and don’t read into. What I have said is that Overall, being dominated by modern tactics and thus dominating a period game, should be eliminated. At first I left it open, so as to have conversations about it, exchange ideas, etc. Of course, would I have suggested it outright there would have been cries of me trying to force my views etc. etc. etc. Then again, that has already happened, and continues to. The rules support my view, it’s just that their simplicity has been used by gamers to dominate the sport.
You've not answered Ms Maple Suger, and you never commented on my final post to the other thread. I'm not sure why, but it would appear that yer after the pleasure of strirring the fire, rather than dealing with finding answers. I hope I'm wrong on that score.
AS far as Maple Sugar’s Post, it was worded towards others, not at me. I’ll answer it below nevertheless. Now, about your last post: The thread was shut down thanks to the cursing and crass comments. Here it is though:
Ok. If that's it in a nutshell we are getting somewhere. (I'm not sure where but we're making progress) That cuts through all of the other side issues that seem to be attached to this debate.
CC, if anyone should be giving that “sigh” it’s me. I’ve had to repeat myself over and over, and besides: the whole purpose was to discuss modern tactics in a period game. The side issues were relevant, as they pertained to my original point, that is, unless you mean the side issues of some brats insulting and making absurd remarks because they can’t have a simple debate.
Here's my take on it: You are NOT going to achieve your goal. No matter how hard you try it isn't going to happen. You see SASS is a business, like any other. And an Overall Champion is part and parcel of making the business a success... Just as having multiple catagories is part of the business stratagy. These things draw people, and they draw ADVERTIZERS DOLLARS. One could argue that doing away with the overall champion position wouldn't affect those things, but the truth is that the current circumstances have worked...and at the business level of this game you will find that "don't mess with success" will be the credo of those in management. That's a reality you are going to run into.
Maybe I won’t achieve my goal, which is, by the way, to simply let period shooters in a period game be represented at the top. Not a lot to ask, especially when no one will have to give up how he or she shoots. As far as SASS being a business, they have to realize that the gamer mentality’s predominance is driving away and keeping away some shooters. The rulebook itself says:
“It is the intention and hope of SASS these requirements will serve to preserve and protect Cowboy Action Shooting™ from the gimmickry and technical gamesmanship that have had such a negative effect on other shooting disciplines.”
This implies that they are aware of how other shooting sports have suffered by allowing certain things. Good business sense would involve not only preserving SASS as it’s supposed to be, but also maintaining and acquiring shooters that stay happy.
At the human leval you will find that folks love an "overall champion" too! It's human nature to admire someone who is at the top of the heap. Regardless of the smaller heaps, they want ONE PERSON to be acknowledged as THE VERY BEST OF THE BEST! Is this a bad thing? I don't think so, it has worked fer us humans for generations. You will find find the occassional exceptions to this aspect of human nature, but as a rule it holds true.
One person being recognized is not really the issue; it’s when that one person can only be an IPSC/modern shooter in a period game that there is a problem.
Finally, I'm pretty danged good at this game. I was state champion Frontier Cartridge Duelist last year. Someday, when money and time allows I'm going to take a shot at FCD Champion at EOT. And you know what? I will be very happy with that...and very happy with someone winning Overall too, because the Overall Champion is making it possible for me to compete the way I want too! (actually, I had a TIA earlier this month and only time will tell if I can ever compete duelist style again, but that's a whole other issue)
The Overall champion is not at all letting you compete how you want to, not if you want to be recognized overall while shooting in a period style in a period game. I don’t think you’re getting what I mean.
If I can give you some advise? Stick to the basics of your arguement...Overall Champion! Don't try attcking the issue from a different direction like "Period Correct" or even using a "what's the point" slant to make your case. You will fare better that way. And you will encounter fewer people making huge issues out of the things you are really not as concerned with as much as you are about the overall champion aspect. In short, narrow your focus to dealing with the most important thing you want! Also, take the issue up with your TG and try to get it on the agenda to be voted on. Write to the Wild Bunch and present your case to them too. If none of these things makes any headway, at least you'll know exactly where you stand and why.
(the above is my opinion, and my opinion only, based on my few years of interacting with my fellow man and observations of his general behaviour, colored of course by my own predjudices..and worth exactly what you paid for it)
The title of this thread is Why Anachronistic tactics in a Period Game? I covered the issues that are affecting this game. Basically, gamer/IPSC attitude spoils this game. However, since some folks can’t compete in a period way while in a period game, we can simply eliminate Overall. This would allow those who want to shoot like they’re in IPSC to do so without dominating a period game, while allowing the period shooters the “courtesy” of not being overshadowed. I brought the issue to The Wire simply to discuss it with others. Instead of just simple agreements or disagreements I’ve gotten insults, threats, harassment, etc. Yet some have the audacity to say that I’M at fault for all the flamers and their obsession with controlling others. Cuts Crooked, I do understand what you are saying, and I appreciate your input.
Finally, as I told you elsewhere, in my opinion you are not going to be able to achieve what you claim to be after. Continued focusing on this issue, in this format, is simply devisive and will only provoke bad feelings. I think you need a long heart to heart with yourself about what you want and how to go about achieving it. I gave you my best advise in the other thread, but I can't make you take it....Good Luck.
I appreciate you input. However, before offering me advice, please take the following into account: The way in which some folks have responde; with accusations, insults, and even profanity, is what is actually divisive. Please have a long heart to heart discussion with those who see fit to harass, harangue, and attack others on the wire.
Maple Sugar Said
So, let me see if I understand Bisley Joe's basic gist.
He doesn't want to eliminate the two-handed categories or any categories. He does believe that everyone should be allowed to shoot as they prefer. (Although he does seem to think that any person of "honor" would choose a one-handed category.)
Let me point out that it is generally considered rude to come into someone’s debate and not speak to them directly. I have made an effort to answer everyone. Please show me the courtesy of speaking to me directly. Thank you.
I’ve made my intention quite clear actually. However, for the sake of intelligent conversation, I will explain. The subject of dignity and honor revolves around entering a PERIOD game and playing it the PERIOD way. If, for example, you joined the Victorian Pugilist Society, honor, ethics, and sportsmanship would prevent you from using modern boxing methods, or Karate, to dominate the game. If the rules don’t expressly forbid it, common sense dictates that the game should be played according to its design. If, in the zeal for victory, a group begins to dominate using modern methods, they should have the honor, decency, and sportsmanship to A: acknowledge that modern methods are dominating a period game and thus disenfranchising period players, and B: that honor, decency, and sportsmanship demand that they, at the very least, contain their modern methods to a separate class.
But he's upset that "modern tactics are dominating a period game." Now, although both halves of this premise are debatable -- whether two-hand is "modern tactic," and whether CAS per SASS rules is in fact a "period game" -- I'm willing to stipulate what I believe is Joe's underlying complaint: that the people who choose one-handed categories have no chance of "dominating," that is, winning the overall prize. (Oh, I just realized that a third element of Bisley Joe's premise is debatable -- that is, the question of whether the two-handers win all the overall prizes, AND the question of whether winning the title of "overall" constitutes "dominating the sport.")
The first half of my premise is supported by history. Absence of evidence does not qualify as proof. Anyone who has any knowledge whatsoever of history knows that supporting a pistol with two hands was done only, and maybe, for a long distance precision shot. For a man to use both hands to fire a pistol was considered effeminate in the old days.
The second half of my premise is backed up by the rules:
“Cowboy Action Shooting™ is a multifaceted shooting sport in which contestants compete with firearms typical of those used in the taming of the Old West: single action revolvers, lever action rifles, and side by side double barreled, pre-1899 pump, or lever action shotguns. The shooting competition is staged in a unique, characterized, ‘Old West’ style.”
“The truly unique aspect of Cowboy Action Shooting™ is the requirement placed on authentic period or western screen dress. Each participant is required to adopt a shooting alias appropriate to a character or profession of the late 19th century, or a Hollywood western star, and develop a costume accordingly.”
“American history buffs and serious shooters alike agree the use of vintage firearms, authentic costuming, unique targets, and fast action make Cowboy Action Shooting™ one of the most interesting of all shooting sports for both spectator and contestant.”
“The firearm must “look” period.”
“Modern drop pouches, combat-style shotgun loops, wrist or forearm bandoleers, and such are not allowed.”
If you don’t see how Overall, by being won solely through the use of modern tactics, is dominating SASS/CAS, a period game, then it is by choice.
Here's what I'm not sure about. Since Bisley Joe has responded here that he *doesn't* want to eliminate the two-handed category or force anyone to shoot a particular way, what exactly is he suggesting that will change which shooting style "dominates" the sport? If the suggestion is doing away with the "overall" awards, well, that suggestion has often been made and considered, but it doesn't usually entail belittling the people and/or shooting categories who have won it in the past, or headlines about how what the "point" of SASS is.
I’ve made it quite clear. Try reading my posts and not reading into them. I didn’t belittle anyone, unless saying that using modern tactics do dominate a period game is unethical… As far as headline about the point of SASS, what is the problem there? I had a question. It is an important subject, since the point of SASS is indeed being lost.
But it seems to me, after reading all of the posts in both threads on the topic, that what Bisley Joe is advocating is some kind of system that would give the one-handed categories the advantage in attaining the overall award. He's quite clear that he wants to WIN that award, not eliminate it.
The only way you could have asked that question is if you either read into what I said, or read other peoples’ opinions instead.
BJ, is this what you're wanting -- a scoring system that somehow rewards one-handed shooters with "style points" (deducted from their time) or handicaps two-handed shooters with penalties (added to their time), so that the one-handed categories would have the advantage in competing for the overall award, and the top shooters would then naturally migrate by choice to those categories? I wouldn't want such a system, you understand, but it's the only logical way I can see to implement the change you're longing for. Please confirm or clarify whether this is what you'd like to see.
Simply read my posts, without reading into them.
Oh, and if it is what you're looking for, then please retract all your negative comments about "Gamers," because to my eyes, the ultimate "Gamer" is a person who seeks to have the rules of the game modified in order to increase their own chances of winning prizes. Maple Sugar
I trust that you have read my posts again, this time without prejudice or reading what others have falsely accused into them. You will understand then why my factual comments need not be retracted. Bisley Joe
Posted by Irish Red O'Toole, #48939 (Member # 13828) on March 27, 2004 08:29 AMMarch 27, 2004 08:29 AM:
quote:
Originally posted by BisleyJoe 29738:
BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH...nothing new to say so I repeat the mantra until they accept it
You are not quoting me, you are fabricating false information. Please try to be honest. Try to use actual facts instead of making things up.
Joe, you aren't interested in debate, just forwarding your own agenda. From what otheres have said, this occurs on a regular basis. That's not someone interested in gentlemanly discourse. That's a fella that likes to kick over the ant hill to watch the show. Not "The Spirit of the Game".
From what others have said aye? I see where all your false accusations and complete misrepresentations of my points come from. I am waiting for you to say the same things to those who have cursed, harangued, and even threatened until the other post was finally shut down. Your attitude reminds me of an old saying: (I will paraphrase) “What a terrible beast! When attacked it defends itself!”
You've had your 15 minutes. We've all heard you and we've (for the most part) dismissed your opinions. Accept it or not, that's the way it is.
That is absolutely fine and well within your rights. So, since you are not required to listen to me in a post you are neither forced nor want to be at, feel free to leave.
If you don't like what you see happening in SASS, try something else or get the rules changed to fit your "vision".
I only intended to debate the subject with folks I thought were “friendly” and all full of the “Cowboy Spirit” before even trying to change anything. My apologies.
Also, you've twice now accused me of being a coward and trying to silence your opinion. If you had read anything I had posted, you would have seen I defended your right to post your opinion. Not once but three times. Who looks the part of the coward now?
I hardly recall accusing you of being a coward. Where did I do so? If I did, please list it on your next post. If I did, and feel that I was wrong, I will apologize gladly.
Finally, you never, not once, addressed any of the other relavant points brought up. Such as:
1. Judge Roy said SASS was originally IPSC with cowboy guns.
I doubt he said that, as it is not true or taken out of context. I’ve been reading up on SASS since about 1986, when I used to buy the gun magazines with articles about SASS/CAS, and there was still no club I could find in S. Florida. Those old articles specifically mentioned SASS being started by former IPSC guys trying to get away from the IPSC mentality. The rules themselves say: “It is the intention and hope of SASS these requirements will serve to preserve and protect Cowboy Action Shooting™ from the gimmickry and technical gamesmanship that have had such a negative effect on other shooting disciplines.” That is a direct allusion to IPSC.
In addition, several fellows, including a very early participant, have made it clear to me that SASS was definitely NOT IPSC with cowboy guns, and that saying that it was is a lie.
2. The first World Champ used a Ruger Blackhawk w/adjustable sights in .30 Carbine and two-handed to win.
We all know that at the beginning SASS was played with whatever they had, since it was brand new.
So, just these two points alone show your whole basis of argument are moot. These elements have been with us from the beginning.
Nope
You've had your 15 minutes. Time to get off the horse and let him die.
Again, Since you are not required to listen to me in a post you are neither forced nor want to be at, feel free to leave. Stop worrying so much about getting me to be quiet and worry more about having the manners not to try and force someone you disagree with into silence. Bisley Joe
Posted by Ethan Cord (Member # 1172) on March 27, 2004 08:41 AMMarch 27, 2004 08:41 AM:
If I recall this game correctly we are emulating the gunfighters and others of the Old West.
Since the main complaint held by the head knower of all knowers of all things achronistic is the elimination of an overall winner so as to remove modern tactics from a period game, his premise gives rise to the thought that mayhaps we have missed our chance to be period correct.
Yes sir perhaps you have figured out that to be loyal to the true spirit of the old west we need to go back and rewrite all the history telling of gunfights and daring deeds of men with the bark on. You have convinced me! I am sure that all those stories were nothing more than tall tales, no one really was shot, and heaven forbid I feel flush and woozy just thinking about it, no one really died!
Funny that you mention rewriting history, as that is what I am trying to stop and what many are trying to do in SASS. Other than that I cannot respond to the rest of that paragraph, as I haven’t the slightest idea of what you are getting at.
That would mean an OVERALL WINNER , the man who walked away after sucessfully going mano a mano with a foe he had to presume could get the better of him. Sorry to break this to you, revisionist history will not change the facts of what truely unfolded on the vast Western frontiers. Not all of it was pretty and nice and there were no soccor moms that passed out 1st place ribbons to everyone on each team. Lets all hug, gee were all the best!Yeah were all special, just like everyone else. Slow down Roy, you know Joey can't run as fast as you and he hates to come to the practices, it just wouldn't be fair if you beat him!
Try actually READING some history before accusing someone of revising it. Your statement simply proves that you have no idea of what you are saying. If you had read my posts you’d have seen that my point is that those who practice and have great skill will always win, regardless of gear,which is right, as long as they use period tactics in a period game.
Also you may wish to check out some of the pitures on pages 42-44 of "The Gunfighters" it's a compilation of Western History published by Time-Life books. You will have to have this re-written as well becasue it shows some pretty extreme exterior modifications to pistols in an effort to shave a split second of time that would perhaps become the difference between life and death.
Funny, I have that book. Those modifications are not allowed in SASS due to safety concerns. Take the time to look at ALL the photos, not just the color ones. You will see drawings, paintings, photos, showing pistols held in one hand. Look at the photo where the gunman is stalking the fellow behind the fence. You were saying: about “revisionist history”?
Let's not even get started on the real stories of many of the gunfighters, the fact that some fired from ambush...........
Try actually READING some history before trying to sound knowledgeable. ‘Cause It aint workin!
Well I am afraid it might be more than you could bear..... you're no daisy at all!!!
How original! That’s from Tombstone. Doc Holliday. I remember: “I’ve got two guns - One for each of ya.” Said, by the way, with one gun in each hand.
Posted by Trapdoor Billy (Member # 12012) on March 27, 2004 12:24 PMMarch 27, 2004 12:24 PM:
quote:
Originally posted by Gold Canyon Kid #43974:
My entry is by noon tomorrow this thread will be locked or eliminated-I sure hope so.
You need to be more specific as to time zones, but in any event, wrong - AGAIN.
Posted by Gold Canyon Kid #43974 (Member # 11280) on March 27, 2004 02:44 PMMarch 27, 2004 02:44 PM:
Trapdoor Billy, what is wrong again? This cowboy sure is wrong, that should be plain for all to read. BJ is a troll that somehow SASS let loose outside the Wire and into the CC.
Gold Canyon Kid, why don’t we keep discussing this topic without name calling?
[ March 27, 2004, 07:08 PM: Message edited by: BisleyJoe 29738 ]
Posted by BisleyJoe 29738 (Member # 9905) on March 27, 2004 06:18 PMMarch 27, 2004 06:18 PM:
Double tap by mistake. Sorry pards!
[ March 27, 2004, 06:20 PM: Message edited by: BisleyJoe 29738 ]
Posted by Trapdoor Billy (Member # 12012) on March 27, 2004 06:25 PMMarch 27, 2004 06:25 PM:
quote:
Originally posted by Gold Canyon Kid #43974:
Trapdoor Billy, what is wrong again? This cowboy sure is wrong, that should be plain for all to read. BJ is a troll that somehow SASS let loose outside the Wire and into the CC.
I don't think he is a troll, just kind of set in his ways and long winded at times.
Posted by Mad Dane, SASS#5536 (Member # 782) on March 27, 2004 07:20 PMMarch 27, 2004 07:20 PM:
I thought it was just a winter thing, but I'm starting to think he really IS in love with himself. And BJ, if you want to get to the top-get out and practice 8-10 hours a day instead of trying to change the rules-that's what all the REAL winners do. I am the Alabama State Champion 2003 in FCD-but I ain't let it go to my head. It, and $1, will get me a Coke most anywhere in Alabama.
Posted by Cimarron Red, SASS 18460 (Member # 338) on March 27, 2004 07:21 PMMarch 27, 2004 07:21 PM:
Joe,
'Tis a noble battle you wage, and I thank you for it.
As an old Pard of mine often said, "It's not what they don't know that bothers me; it's what they know that ain't so!"
Posted by TENNESSEE DEADEYE SASS# 26785 (Member # 9992) on March 27, 2004 07:31 PMMarch 27, 2004 07:31 PM:
Well Bisley Joe I see you aren't denying You are a Liberal and a Democrat! You wont be satisfied untill someone makes you an overall match champ whether you have earned it or not. So SHUTUP! and PRATICE! and then the rest of us wont have to listen to you WHINE!!!
Posted by Uncle Chan (Member # 16285) on March 27, 2004 07:44 PMMarch 27, 2004 07:44 PM:
It would seem to me that this thread has gone on long enough. Anyone in agreement?
BTW, I shoot traditional. But, after reading all of this, I think I'll try duelist.
Later,
u.c.
p.s. BTW, ain't no crime being a lib/dem, yet. but, give bushco a few more years and it just might become one.
[ March 27, 2004, 07:48 PM: Message edited by: Uncle Chan ]
Posted by Lucky Deuce 1951, SASS #35350 (Member # 10638) on March 27, 2004 08:10 PMMarch 27, 2004 08:10 PM:
I told Bisley Joe to go find a mule and explain his ideas to it and then whang his foot with a large hammer... He will accomplish about as much talking to the mule as he would posting here... and as for hitting himself in the foot..well thats a lot less painful than trying to have an intelligent reasonable discussion here...
Posted by Ethan Cord (Member # 1172) on March 27, 2004 08:19 PMMarch 27, 2004 08:19 PM:
BJ,
Following your sage wisdom I attempted to educate meself with all the "black an white pictures." I was going to read some too, but of course with my limited education I just couldn't quite throw a loop on some of them dimestore words.
But I could tell you were telling the truth (as you see it) because it is clearly laid out in them picures that were complete and historically factual. Yep page 187 proves that Billy the Kid had 2 right hands. The picture on page 168 is supposed to be Billy but he don't have 2 right hands and that is troubling based on the fact that the other picture shows he does. He must of special ordered that '73 with the loading gate on the left, my original rifle has the loading gate on the right. But with him being a famous killer it only makes since that he would have a special made gun, I just wonder why a guy with two right hands would want a loading gate on the left.
Mostly as I thumbed through the pictures I wondered why many of them showed purported gunmen with no guns at all, heck maybe the whole gunfighter thing is just a bunch of nonsense made up by them dime store novelists. They did not have guns, otherwise the pictures would have showed them!
Gosh and page 123 has a real corker! There is some longhaired guy with 2 hands on a gun, but if'n he pulls the trigger I bet he sure enough is going to wish he was holding it different.
I'm glad to see that you are relying on magazine writers to tell the true facts of CAS and SASS. I guess it don't matter much too you that they are inaccurate many times. Heck you might believe that the Henry Big Boy is approved for SASS if you read the latest issue of Guns of the Old West. Many gunwriters credibilty often rivals that of the the great Ned Buntline!
Pain is optional amigo, I hope you enjoy your work and family more than you enjoy your hobby.
[ March 27, 2004, 08:32 PM: Message edited by: Ethan Cord ]
Posted by Ethan Cord (Member # 1172) on March 27, 2004 08:29 PMMarch 27, 2004 08:29 PM:
I am reminded of another Floridian who spent many hours at the campfire a stirring the pot. Any one besides me think that Bert Hawk has returned with a new alias?
And for the record I am partial to the Frontiersman category.
Went to Piney Woods to do an alias check and found this: Bert Hawk - 38313 listed under the "B" section!
Different guys it would appear but something feels the same!
[ March 27, 2004, 09:01 PM: Message edited by: Ethan Cord ]
Posted by Irish Red O'Toole, #48939 (Member # 13828) on March 27, 2004 08:59 PMMarch 27, 2004 08:59 PM:
quote:
Originally posted by Uncle Chan:
It would seem to me that this thread has gone on long enough. Anyone in agreement?
AYE!!!!
quote:
Originally posted by Uncle Chan:
BTW, I shoot traditional. But, after reading all of this, I think I'll try duelist.
How unfair, you have to resign yourself to NEVER winning a match! How can you look youself in the mirror?
quote:
Originally posted by Uncle Chan:
p.s. BTW, ain't no crime being a lib/dem, yet. but, give bushco a few more years and it just might become one.
Couldn't resist, could you.....
Posted by Oracle SASS # 4854 (Member # 12984) on March 28, 2004 12:42 AMMarch 28, 2004 12:42 AM:
Joe,
I agree with you. It was a well written article and well received by the majority of SASS/CAS competors. Yes I've am a competor.
.44 caliber, 225 grain slugs powered at 800 fps full house loads. I've shot Duelist, Double Duelist (my favorite) Gunfighter, but never smokeless. Smokeless is just a passing phase anyway and will never last. Always the Holy Black.
I would like it, as I believe a majority of SASS/CAS competors would like to see less "gaming" i.e. mouse fart loads, short stroke kits, Weaver shooting stance, $ 2,500 Rugers, etc. ALL the "win no matter what it takes" attitude. SASS/CAS has turned into an equipment race. That race has fostered the modern shooting stances and many of the other woes and attitudes we (SASS/CAS) are facing.
Let me apoligize for those who have made unkind comments. I hope to see you at EoT.
Posted by Gold Canyon Kid #43974 (Member # 11280) on March 28, 2004 05:15 AMMarch 28, 2004 05:15 AM:
BJ, you shouldn't have any trouble spotting your new best buddy Oracle at EOT, remember he is the pard that said he was going to show up at EOT in body armor and challenge anyone shooting less manly loads than his to a real gunfight. He's also the guy up there in the back woods in Alaska that will pull your match ammo and check it against his "calibrated" knock down target, and if he fails to knock it down with your ammo, you are DQd. It would appear to be a great leap to say that two handed shooting is responsible for internal mods to shoot faster.
Posted by Shoshone Slim, SASS #31347 (Member # 12478) on March 28, 2004 08:23 AMMarch 28, 2004 08:23 AM:
OH, I have seen the error of my ways.....Joe I fall before you and beg your forgiveness, you ain't no coward. You are the yardstick that we should all measure ourselves by. Can you ever forgive this crude buffoon. I can't sleep I can't eat, why I can't even fullfil my husbandly duties I'm so consumed with guilt and the fear that we can't be friends. Just the mere thought of you have'in such a lowly opinion of me is just devistating to my self esteem. Please please say you forgive me.....please........(at this point Slim breaks down sobbing uncontrollably, the attendants burst into his room, rip him from the keyboard, administer ativan i.m. and return him to his padded room)
Posted by Uncle Chan (Member # 16285) on March 28, 2004 09:27 AMMarch 28, 2004 09:27 AM:
Irish,
It is like picking a scab.....
Later, Sir,
U.C.
Posted by Cinch, SASS#29433 (Member # 3487) on March 28, 2004 10:36 AMMarch 28, 2004 10:36 AM:
Whatever.....
I just keep trying to catch those 2 handed guys and I don't worry about it. If they beat me by a couple a seconds then I can tell'em that anybody can shoot fast with 2 hands .
I just wanna outlaw misses........
Later, Cinch
Posted by Virgil Ray Hality, SASS# 37355 (Member # 6341) on March 28, 2004 01:22 PMMarch 28, 2004 01:22 PM:
Uncle Chan, Irish Red O'Toole, I NAY you motion, FWIW. I think this need to go on a bit further.
BisleyJoe, I have read this thread end to end, and I think I see your point. Let me ask a question to other Pards on the wire:
Pards, has any EOT Overall Chapion ever been from the Duelist, Double Duelist or Gunfighter class? Or were they all Modern or Traditional class winners using two handed weaver stance with off hand thumb cocking of the hammer?
BTW, all the really fast pictures posted by Kid Shane show two handed weaver stance with off hand thumb cocking of the hammer.
Posted by Shoshone Slim, SASS #31347 (Member # 12478) on March 28, 2004 02:01 PMMarch 28, 2004 02:01 PM:
Uncle Chan wrote:
quote:
p.s. BTW, ain't no crime being a lib/dem, yet. but, give bushco a few more years and it just might become one.
We can only hope and dream..........
(The attendants burst back into the room having found the recently escaped Slim and put him into the special button up the back tuxedo and drag him kicking and screamin' back to his padded room)
[ March 28, 2004, 02:04 PM: Message edited by: Shoshone Slim, SASS #31347 ]
Posted by Doc Whip Lash #15561 (Member # 9566) on March 28, 2004 02:05 PMMarch 28, 2004 02:05 PM:
Howdy Pards,
If I'm in a running gun battle shooting single action pistols, I'm positive that I'm shooting with one hand. Think about it, if you are on horseback you will need your off hand to steady your horse. If you are on foot, you will need your off hand to give you balance and support in the event you need to drop, duck or just use that hand to help you maneuver around a building or tree. You are not going to be stalking someone down the street with two hands on your pistol like you are some modern day cop.
People of that era did not have the knowledge or intelligence to figure out the Weaver stance or they would have. You would see it being used in the Army, by cowboys in old photos. Yes, you can find a few photos showing someone holding a pistol with 2 hands but I challange you to a shooting battle where you only hold your gun with 2 hands and I only hold my with one. I'd like to see you shooting over your shoulder at me while running for cover.
But forget all that, the real message of Bisley Joe's thread is that there should not be an overall winner, when you can only win it by shooting with 2 hands, a slicked up gun, a minimum costume, shotgun shell slides, short-stroked rifles, reloads practically falling out of the loops and cant on the holster that if they run the pistol almost comes out.
I have enjoyed most of the discussion on this topic on this thread but some of you are just nasty. If you don't like the thread just look away and go away. These threads should be like a group of cowboys and girls just sitting around the campfire and discussions opinions and ideas without the name calling and threats of physical contact.
And why the bully tactics to get the thread shut down. I guess you ahole bullies can just throw up a few curse words and get anyones thoughts and opinions stopped and deleted. Zeig Heil!
Just my opinion.
Doc Whip Lash (DUELIST,Bullwhipper,Horseman)
Posted by Pecos Red SASS#19018 (Member # 1141) on March 28, 2004 04:33 PMMarch 28, 2004 04:33 PM:
Ethan Cord;
I believe you may be onto somthing, I hear a flutter of wings hear. I believe the Hawk is back!
What a bored individual.
Posted by BisleyJoe 29738 (Member # 9905) on March 28, 2004 05:47 PMMarch 28, 2004 05:47 PM:
Posted by Mad Dane, SASS#5536 (Member # 782) on March 27, 2004 07:20 PMMarch 27, 2004 07:20 PM:
I thought it was just a winter thing, but I'm starting to think he really IS in love with himself. And BJ, if you want to get to the top-get out and practice 8-10 hours a day instead of trying to change the rules-that's what all the REAL winners do. I am the Alabama State Champion 2003 in FCD-but I ain't let it go to my head. It, and $1, will get me a Coke most anywhere in Alabama.
Mad Dane, please read my posts, not what some others are saying about them. If you would, you’d see that I have said that the ones who practice and have the skill will win, and that this is how it ought to be. The point is actually to allow those who practice like hell in a period way to at least get equal billing in the period game they are playing. REAL winners play the game as it should be: i.e. modern tactics not dominating a period game. If you joined a Greco-Roman wrestling club would you try to use karate?
Posted by Cimarron Red, SASS 18460 (Member # 338) on March 27, 2004 07:21 PMMarch 27, 2004 07:21 PM:
Joe,
'Tis a noble battle you wage, and I thank you for it.
As an old Pard of mine often said, "It's not what they don't know that bothers me; it's what they know that ain't so!"
Indeed! That seems to be the basic problem: "What they know that aint true."
Posted by TENNESSEE DEADEYE SASS# 26785 (Member # 9992) on March 27, 2004 07:31 PMMarch 27, 2004 07:31 PM:
Well Bisley Joe I see you aren't denying You are a Liberal and a Democrat! You wont be satisfied untill someone makes you an overall match champ whether you have earned it or not. So SHUTUP! and PRATICE! and then the rest of us wont have to listen to you WHINE!!!
Tennessee Deadeye, “shut up”? That hardly seems in the spirit of free speech or America. Perhaps you should actually read my posts instead of reading into them. As I said earlier: can we not discuss this topic without name calling? Is it so hard for you to disagree with someone while remaining civil? You obviously haven’t read my posts, because if you have and still mean what you just said, it would prove that you simply cannot stand a dissenting opinion, and that is neither in the American or Cowboy spirit, which should be the same. Some of us are discussing valid points here: about SASS being a period game, and that therefore it should not be dominated by modern tactics. Even a cursory investigation of historical facts will prove that two handed shooting was not done in the 19th century or before, save for perhaps an occasional long range accuracy shot. As I have said, the ones who practice and who have the skill will surely win, regardless of equipment. Therefore, lets play this period game the period way, or at least let’s just have categories. By not having Overall, we can each worry about winning in class. Those who want to shoot with modern tactics will be able to compete in their own class, just like everybody else. As I said before: If, for example, you joined the Victorian Pugilist Society, honor, ethics, and sportsmanship would prevent you from using modern boxing methods, or Karate, to dominate the game. If, in the zeal for victory, a group begins to dominate using modern methods, they should have the sportsmanship to A: acknowledge that modern methods are dominating a period game and thus disenfranchising period players, and B: that honor, decency, and sportsmanship demand that they, at the very least, contain their modern methods to a separate class. In this manner, practice and skill can truly be measured. That’s all I am saying. Now, let’s continue to agree or disagree, but in a civil manner. There is no need to bring down SASS, the wire, or ourselves by being rude, crass, or profane. Bisley Joe
Posted by Uncle Chan (Member # 16285) on March 27, 2004 07:44 PMMarch 27, 2004 07:44 PM:
It would seem to me that this thread has gone on long enough. Anyone in agreement?
BTW, I shoot traditional. But, after reading all of this, I think I'll try duelist.
Later,
u.c.
p.s. BTW, ain't no crime being a lib/dem, yet. but, give bushco a few more years and it just might become one.
Why would you come into someone’s debate, where you do not have, and obviously don’t want, to be, solely to call for it to be shut down? I’ll be glad to debate with you. I respect your opinions, but please, let’s not turn this into another flame fest. I respect your right to express yourself, so please respect mine.
Some of us are discussing valid points here: about SASS being a period game, and that therefore it should not be dominated by modern tactics. Even a cursory investigation of historical facts will prove that two handed shooting was not done in the 19th century or before, save for perhaps an occasional long range accuracy shot. As I have said, the ones who practice and who have the skill will surely win, regardless of equipment. Therefore, lets play this period game the period way, or at least let’s just have categories. By not having Overall, we can each worry about winning in class. Those who want to shoot with modern tactics will be able to compete in their own class, just like everybody else. As I said before: If, for example, you joined the Victorian Pugilist Society, honor, ethics, and sportsmanship would prevent you from using modern boxing methods, or Karate, to dominate the game. If, in the zeal for victory, a group begins to dominate using modern methods, they should have the honor, decency, and sportsmanship to A: acknowledge that modern methods are dominating a period game and thus disenfranchising period players, and B: that honor, decency, and sportsmanship demand that they, at the very least, contain their modern methods to a separate class. In this manner, practice and skill can truly be measured. Bisley Joe
Posted by Lucky Deuce 1951, SASS #35350 (Member # 10638) on March 27, 2004 08:10 PMMarch 27, 2004 08:10 PM:
I told Bisley Joe to go find a mule and explain his ideas to it and then whang his foot with a large hammer... He will accomplish about as much talking to the mule as he would posting here... and as for hitting himself in the foot..well thats a lot less painful than trying to have an intelligent reasonable discussion here...
Sad, but true.
Posted by Ethan Cord on March 27, 2004 08:19 PMMarch 27, 2004 08:19 PM:
BJ,
Following your sage wisdom I attempted to educate meself with all the "black an white pictures." I was going to read some too, but of course with my limited education I just couldn't quite throw a loop on some of them dimestore words.
Let’s get something straight Ethan; I am not trying to insult or pick a fight with you. Let’s not get so caught up in being ticked off that we refuse to listen.
But I could tell you were telling the truth (as you see it) because it is clearly laid out in them picures that were complete and historically factual. Yep page 187 proves that Billy the Kid had 2 right hands. The picture on page 168 is supposed to be Billy but he don't have 2 right hands and that is troubling based on the fact that the other picture shows he does. He must of special ordered that '73 with the loading gate on the left, my original rifle has the loading gate on the right. But with him being a famous killer it only makes since that he would have a special made gun, I just wonder why a guy with two right hands would want a loading gate on the left.
Ethan, you are condemning historical fact and ignoring all other pictures because one artist made a mistake in drawing a hand. As far as the photo on pg 168: photos are sometimes printed “flipped” by mistake. If you would have taken the time to look a little closer and study it you would have noticed that the buttons on Billy’s vest are also on the left. Men’s clothing always has the buttons on the right. This proves that the photo was printed from a “flipped” negative. This is the difference between studying evidence and making assumptions based upon emotion.
Mostly as I thumbed through the pictures I wondered why many of them showed purported gunmen with no guns at all, heck maybe the whole gunfighter thing is just a bunch of nonsense made up by them dime store novelists. They did not have guns, otherwise the pictures would have showed them!
For goodness sake. Not every photo of every gunman is going to show them armed. Plenty of photos show folks armed, and the ones with them shooting show them doing it one-handed. It is historical fact. There is no need to get bent out of shape over this.
Gosh and page 123 has a real corker! There is some longhaired guy with 2 hands on a gun, but if'n he pulls the trigger I bet he sure enough is going to wish he was holding it different.
Yes, an illustration of Wild Bill Hickok. Indeed! If he fires that pistol he’s going to get some powder burns on his left hand, a very uncomfortable ringing in his ears. Obviously he is in a pose, and hardly holding that pistol in a shooting position. If you remember, Wild Bill was the one who made that long distance shot by resting his gun hand on his left arm, killing a Mr. Tutt at between 50 and 75 yards.
I'm glad to see that you are relying on magazine writers to tell the true facts of CAS and SASS. I guess it don't matter much too you that they are inaccurate many times. Heck you might believe that the Henry Big Boy is approved for SASS if you read the latest issue of Guns of the Old West. Many gunwriters credibilty often rivals that of the the great Ned Buntline! Pain is optional amigo, I hope you enjoy your work and family more than you enjoy your hobby.
More than magazines. As I said, I do not want to make this a contest of bitterness. I am still waiting to discuss the others factors: that SASS is a period sport, described in the very rules as: “Cowboy Action Shooting™ is a combination of historical re-enactment and Saturday morning at the matinee.” This being so, don’t you think that Overall, being winnable only using modern tactics, is disenfranchising the period shooters? It is COWBOY Action Shooting.
As I have said, the ones who practice and who have the skill will surely win, regardless of equipment. Therefore, lets play this period game the period way, or at least let’s just have categories. By not having Overall, we can each worry about winning in class. Those who want to shoot with modern tactics will be able to compete in their own class, just like everybody else. Now, please tell me how having us all compete in categories is a bad thing?
Posted by Oracle SASS # 4854 (Member # 12984) on March 28, 2004 12:42 AMMarch 28, 2004 12:42 AM:
Joe,
I agree with you. It was a well written article and well received by the majority of SASS/CAS competors. Yes I've am a competor.
.44 caliber, 225 grain slugs powered at 800 fps full house loads. I've shot Duelist, Double Duelist (my favorite) Gunfighter, but never smokeless. Smokeless is just a passing phase anyway and will never last. Always the Holy Black.
I would like it, as I believe a majority of SASS/CAS competors would like to see less "gaming" i.e. mouse fart loads, short stroke kits, Weaver shooting stance, $ 2,500 Rugers, etc. ALL the "win no matter what it takes" attitude. SASS/CAS has turned into an equipment race. That race has fostered the modern shooting stances and many of the other woes and attitudes we (SASS/CAS) are facing.
Very well put sir! The folks who are turning this into an equipment race are deliberately ignoring and circumventing the rules. They keep saying how practice is the only way to win, like we don’t know this. Maybe they just don’t feel they can win without the gamesmanship and gimmickry that the rules mention as having had negative effects.
Let me apoligize for those who have made unkind comments. I hope to see you at EoT.
Thank you pard! No need to apologize! You and others who have behaved like gentlemen have more than made up for the few who’s behavior is so deplorable. Current situation prevents my attending EoT, but I hope to do so in the future. Your friend, Bisley Joe
Posted by Virgil Ray Hality, SASS# 37355 (Member # 6341) on March 28, 2004 01:22 PMMarch 28, 2004 01:22 PM:
Uncle Chan, Irish Red O'Toole, I NAY you motion, FWIW. I think this need to go on a bit further.
BisleyJoe, I have read this thread end to end, and I think I see your point. Let me ask a question to other Pards on the wire:
Pards, has any EOT Overall Chapion ever been from the Duelist, Double Duelist or Gunfighter class? Or were they all Modern or Traditional class winners using two handed weaver stance with off hand thumb cocking of the hammer?
BTW, all the really fast pictures posted by Kid Shane show two handed weaver stance with off hand thumb cocking of the hammer.
Virgil Ray Hality: right on the money!
Posted by Doc Whip Lash #15561 (Member # 9566) on March 28, 2004 02:05 PMMarch 28, 2004 02:05 PM:
Howdy Pards,
If I'm in a running gun battle shooting single action pistols, I'm positive that I'm shooting with one hand. Think about it, if you are on horseback you will need your off hand to steady your horse. If you are on foot, you will need your off hand to give you balance and support in the event you need to drop, duck or just use that hand to help you maneuver around a building or tree. You are not going to be stalking someone down the street with two hands on your pistol like you are some modern day cop.
People of that era did not have the knowledge or intelligence to figure out the Weaver stance or they would have. You would see it being used in the Army, by cowboys in old photos. Yes, you can find a few photos showing someone holding a pistol with 2 hands but I challange you to a shooting battle where you only hold your gun with 2 hands and I only hold my with one. I'd like to see you shooting over your shoulder at me while running for cover.
But forget all that, the real message of Bisley Joe's thread is that there should not be an overall winner, when you can only win it by shooting with 2 hands, a slicked up gun, a minimum costume, shotgun shell slides, short-stroked rifles, reloads practically falling out of the loops and cant on the holster that if they run the pistol almost comes out.
I have enjoyed most of the discussion on this topic on this thread but some of you are just nasty. If you don't like the thread just look away and go away. These threads should be like a group of cowboys and girls just sitting around the campfire and discussions opinions and ideas without the name calling and threats of physical contact.
And why the bully tactics to get the thread shut down. I guess you ahole bullies can just throw up a few curse words and get anyones thoughts and opinions stopped and deleted. Zeig Heil!
Just my opinion.
Doc Whip Lash (DUELIST,Bullwhipper,Horseman)
Exactly right. Funny how we keep hearing accusations of being “un-American” from folks acting like dictators!
[ March 28, 2004, 06:12 PM: Message edited by: BisleyJoe 29738 ]
Posted by BisleyJoe 29738 (Member # 9905) on March 28, 2004 05:49 PMMarch 28, 2004 05:49 PM:
So SASS is at least part historical reenactment, and it is COWBOY Action Shooting. But somewhere along the line we’ve lost at least some of the purpose of this game. Shooting matches, including EoT, with the bare minimum or dressed in some super hero costume, choosing to use the simplicity of the rules to warrant blatant distortions of the Spirit of the Game, bringing in the gimmickry and technical gamesmanship that the rules specifically speak against: these are hardly the standards that SASS is supposed to represent. We owe at least a little to the era we are trying to emulate and to our heritage as Americans.
The issue isn’t winning or loosing: it is how we go about conducting ourselves. We’ve heard over and over that it isn’t the equipment but the practice which makes champs, and I agree. So why not practice, compete, and be a champ using the techniques and equipment which are consistent with the era we are trying to represent? Or at least, why not be satisfied with keeping anachronistic techniques in their own category, like all the others?
My goal is not to insure my own victory, but to see myself and others able to win, or loose, while emulating the era of the Old West. I do not consider myself any less or any more than anyone, and I thoroughly enjoy the company of all the folks I meet at SASS events. Surely we all want to remain friends and enjoy each others company. But true friendship, true camaraderie, does not depend upon keeping our mouths shut when we have an opinion; it depends upon honesty and loyalty, and speaking our peace. These discussions have brought out some anger and resentment, but they have also produced thought and the realization that many of us feel the same about a hobby we hold very dear. Let’s take action and make some fair changes. Let’s work together to preserve this game, to keep it at a level where we can all truly enjoy it. If we don’t, it will surely fall forfeit to gods of gimmickry and winning-at-any-cost.
Bisley Joe
[ March 28, 2004, 05:51 PM: Message edited by: BisleyJoe 29738 ]
Posted by Lucky Deuce 1951, SASS #35350 (Member # 10638) on March 28, 2004 05:53 PMMarch 28, 2004 05:53 PM:
Well Said...
Posted by Ornery Orr, SASS #51137 (Member # 15058) on March 28, 2004 06:11 PMMarch 28, 2004 06:11 PM:
HEY BISLEY JOE!!!
I see the words your typing, but all I'm reading is BLAH!,BLAH!,BLAH!,BLAH!,BLAH!
Posted by Filthy Harry, SASS #24924 (Member # 379) on March 28, 2004 06:33 PMMarch 28, 2004 06:33 PM:
Dang I'm glad I live in Wisconsin. Loooong way from Florida.
Posted by Johnny Lightning (Member # 13042) on March 28, 2004 07:08 PMMarch 28, 2004 07:08 PM:
Hey BJ,
If you joined a Greco-Roman wrestling team and someone came up with a new move you'd be writing an article about it saying it wasn't right. You're unhappy. That's you. It doesn't matter what the subject is, you're going to find something to complain about.
To all the rest of you posters I say this. If what BJ says or writes bothers you then don't answer him with your posts. THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT HE WANTS!!!! He's thriving on this. Ignore him. Maybe he'll go away. FAR AWAY!! Quit giving him what he needs because this seems to be all he needs. Sorry I had to add to it. Adios.
Posted by Brother Angel, #15713 (Member # 7900) on March 28, 2004 07:16 PMMarch 28, 2004 07:16 PM:
Bisley Joe,
Pard, you have put up the longest posts I have ever seen.
Folks,
Has it occurred to you that neither side has given an inch. When both sides are convinced they are right, arguin' just raises the temperature. (Ask the Israeli and the Palestinians).
If this disagreement had taken place in 1884, instead of 2004, somebody would have gone for their guns a long time ago.
If in 1784, seconds would have been chosen, duels fought, and the losers buried before this string got to page two.
I wish we could concentrate on the things we do agree with, like we love shooting, and Cowboy shooting is lots of fun, and good for families, and stuff like that.
In some families, at get-together time, you just can't talk about politics, or religion, or whatever. It just leads to arguin' and fightin' among the family. One or two handed shootin', and hot loads vs peewee loads, are like that in our family. Keep it up and good friends are gonna wind up enemies.
Like it or not, this is a mixed sport. Purists maybe oughta think about joining NCOWS, or going into reenacting. Those activities are good too, just different. SASS is more inclusive than that. Mustered-out Civil War soldiers to TV cowboys are all under the same tent.
Some love to get dressed up and shoot for fun. Others love to dress a little, and shoot real fast. Some focus on the camaraderie, others on winning. Why not pick what you want to be, and let the others do the same. Besides, it's really all about an excuse to get new toys.
New folks lookin' in and seein' all this arguin' are still impressed, but not the way we want them to be. Maybe a little more thinkin', and a lot less arguin', ought to be the order for the day. Let's clean up this camp, and smile a little more, OK? We have a lot to be thankful for.
Posted by HogHead McLead #15628L (Member # 4353) on March 28, 2004 07:29 PMMarch 28, 2004 07:29 PM:
huh? all this bandwith and the point is???????
Posted by Shoshone Slim, SASS #31347 (Member # 12478) on March 28, 2004 07:32 PMMarch 28, 2004 07:32 PM:
I've got it!!!! BJCSS....the Bisley Joe Cowboy Shootin' Society a combination of SASS and NCOWS, I can think of at least 3 members...I say go for it....(the attendants rush in to find Slim typing with his feet...this can't be...it's not historically accurate...people don't type with their feet!!! They pounce on Slim and jam his feet into tennis shoes and drag him off once again)
Posted by Alferd Packer SASS # 37602 (Member # 15010) on March 28, 2004 08:24 PMMarch 28, 2004 08:24 PM:
Let the man post what he will.
I challenge anyone. to answer any post you don't agree with,
and leave out the name-calling.
When I catch myself name calling, The next day I look back and see that I lost it.
Dern it, go back and Edit out the name-calling part.
For my part, anybody that is judged a Troll should be kicked out of the Forum and that done by the moderators.
Otherwise, name-calling is a TROLL activity whose aim is to inflame the person who is the target.
I am guilty. I am working on totally curbing this activity since the posters on here are also SHOOTERS and could be angry enough to Columbine me at a Shoot.
That ain't the Hay-balin Combine I'm referrin to,either.
I am believing that a lot of the posters on here have exhibited less than adult behavior so follows the Columbine reference.
The man asked a question about "One hand VS two?"
He brings a lot of discussion, but all we need to do is say yes or no, and if you want, just give reasons for your answer.
Or if you see his handle, look in and don't post a thing.
Slinging mud and then defending the mud-slinging is shameful behavior at best, and at worst is discouraging to people looking in on SASS.
Lately, when I talk up the organization to people and get them to view it on the internet, they come back and tell me the front 'S' should be dropped from SASS.
Just look back at this thread and think how it looks to a professional, honorable person.
They can see how a member gets treated. Would you join SASS based on this thread?
One guy told me it sounded like a bunch that "needed to get a life" ganging up on a guy that refuses to go down.
He said he's not paying for a "ride on that train."
And this fellow and his whole family like to shoot.
If anybody agrees with me I sure wish they'd take a minute and go back and Edit out the garbage, or maybe the whole post.
Just food for thought.
Thank goodness I'm off the soapbox.
I'm outta here.
[ March 28, 2004, 08:28 PM: Message edited by: Alferd Packer SASS # 37602 ]
Posted by Shoshone Slim, SASS #31347 (Member # 12478) on March 28, 2004 08:45 PMMarch 28, 2004 08:45 PM:
Isn't it time that this stupid piece of crap thread comes to an end? Damn!
Posted by Ethan Cord (Member # 1172) on March 28, 2004 09:02 PMMarch 28, 2004 09:02 PM:
BJ,
You said:
quote:
Let’s get something straight Ethan; I am not trying to insult or pick a fight with you. Let’s not get so caught up in being ticked off that we refuse to listen.
I'm not ticked off, even though you did allude to my stupidity and utter lack of knowledge of all things historical a number of times. I was just making a little sport with you by showing you how easy it is to suck someone in with "historical facts"! I have in the neighborhood of 1000 books on the Western period and could point out numerous discrepancies. I was just pulling your leg a little cause you make it so easy! Call it Cowboy campfire humor.
The reverse negative of William Bonney is the only known photo of him. For years folks did not notice the error. They made movies about him and wrote about him as if he were left handed. One movie is even called "The Left Handed Gun" if my memory serves. So called experts used this photo to prove their point.
The facts are that SASS has been dominated by a style of shooting you dislike. You believe that at the beginning all or most of CAS was shot in one handed styles and that is just not the case. I would be willing to let you look at some of my old pictures or better yet you could contact Tex at the SASS office. He has literally miles of video tape. You could probably look at some of that as well. And Tex would be the guy to tell you about the time frame of the different shooting styles as he spearheaded many of the 1 handed styles himself.
A lot of stuff has changed in the time I have been playing this cowboy game. At one time most events only required one hand gun. If a second pistol was need for a stage the club provided it and the ammo! A large match was 60 people. A whole bunch of new shooting categories have been added including the ones that require 1 handed shooting. The early cosmtumeing left a lot to be desired, but now some folks spend a months wages on an outfit they wear once or twice a year. I could buy 1st gen Colts for $500 and really nice Winchesters for the same or less. We roped plywood cows. We shot bows. We threw knives. We used pocket pistols to shoot bad guys in the belly (balloons were used in the belly). There was running, sometimes a lot of running, and jumping on and off of every kind of prop horse you can imagine. We rode stick ponies, filled shot glasses and cracked bull whips. Now so many folks show up for shoots there is no way to have all these very cool things. It would just take too long.
A couple things have not changed, most folks are still downright friendly and helpful. Most folks still shoot the 2 handed categories, and yes the sport still recognizes the overall winner just as they have from the beginning.
If you feel a driving need to make changes to the sport by all means give it your best shot. You just need to honest though. You are trying to change it into something it never was since I have been involved. You are not trying to get back to the roots of the game, you want to change the game to what you think it should have been. And that is what I would called revising history.
[ March 28, 2004, 09:08 PM: Message edited by: Ethan Cord ]
Posted by Ethan Cord (Member # 1172) on March 28, 2004 10:06 PMMarch 28, 2004 10:06 PM:
My apologies for breaking this up into a couple of posts. I type kinda of slow, but I do want to answer a couple of questions you asked:
quote:
that SASS is a period sport, described in the very rules as: “Cowboy Action Shooting™ is a combination of historical re-enactment and Saturday morning at the matinee.” This being so, don’t you think that Overall, being winnable only using modern tactics, is disenfranchising the period shooters?
Joe, for me the fact that the SASS handbook speaks of combining history and matinee leaves things wide open for all types of folks to find a way to enjoy themselves. Personally I think that if some dude showed up wearing blue spandex tights like the Lone Ranger he probably would have taken a pretty good beating in the real old west. How many women and children gunfighters do you think were around in the old days? Should we bar women and kids to be accurate? That would certainly disenfranchise an important part of our family but it would make the sport more period correct. I really don't worry about the overall winner, they are just folks like us, and like us they are going to drive home in the same car they came in. No one wins new cars and no one takes home a prize money check. This is for fun.
One other thought, some of the duelists and gunfighters are real close to the overall fast times, you just never know what may happen!
quote:
As I have said, the ones who practice and who have the skill will surely win, regardless of equipment. Therefore, lets play this period game the period way, or at least let’s just have categories. By not having Overall, we can each worry about winning in class. Those who want to shoot with modern tactics will be able to compete in their own class, just like everybody else. Now, please tell me how having us all compete in categories is a bad thing?
It's not a bad thing and that is why we have the categories. But as to your theroy on overall winners, human nature will always drive folks to determine who was the overall winner. We love winners. We all want to be winners. I have been to a couple of matches where the overall scores were not posted. Guess what happend? The shooters sat down with their score cards and added up times to determine who was the top gun!
I see each category winner as a champion, and that is how SASS sees them. The trophy for 1st place in each category at EOT says World Champion on it.
I still think blue spandex pants look gay, but somehow the costumes in The Three Amigos do not (well maybe just a little while they sing "My Little Buttercup)! What a game, something to please almost everyone!
Posted by Sodbuster Oliver Bend, SASS #46387 (Member # 17068) on March 28, 2004 11:03 PMMarch 28, 2004 11:03 PM:
There is nothing in any post by Joe that shows anything leading to discussion. Joe has his opinion and doesn't let anything resembling logic or facts enter into the equation. Just says the same thing over and over. He has the right to waste his time however he chooses, sorry he doesn't see others should be given the same rights. When a opinion differring from his is made the insults from him just start to flow. May not always be blatant, though some are most assuredly blatant. So chatter on Joe, NO one cares.
Posted by Trapdoor Billy (Member # 12012) on March 29, 2004 03:13 AMMarch 29, 2004 03:13 AM:
quote:
Originally posted by Sodbuster Oliver Bend, SASS #46387:
So chatter on Joe, NO one cares.
If that were the case why do his post attract sooooooooo much attention?
Posted by Virgil Ray Hality, SASS# 37355 (Member # 6341) on March 29, 2004 12:03 PMMarch 29, 2004 12:03 PM:
Ethan Cord, you not that some of the overall times of "some of the duelists and gunfighters are real close to the overall fast times..."
Just how close are they? If Overall winner had a 2nd and 3rd place, would it (or has it) have included duelists and gunfighters in past matches?
Posted by Trapdoor Billy (Member # 12012) on March 29, 2004 12:30 PMMarch 29, 2004 12:30 PM:
quote:
Originally posted by Shoshone Slim, SASS #31347:
Isn't it time that this stupid piece of crap thread comes to an end? Damn!
If ya curse and name call maybe the moderators will. Better yet, if ya don't want to read what the man has to say , well you get the point; I guess.
This one will soon run its course.
Posted by Shoshone Slim, SASS #31347 (Member # 12478) on March 29, 2004 12:34 PMMarch 29, 2004 12:34 PM:
Allow me to rephrase....
Isn't it about time for this moronic slice of defecation to come to an end?...Darn!
Posted by Virgil Ray Hality, SASS# 37355 (Member # 6341) on March 29, 2004 01:25 PMMarch 29, 2004 01:25 PM:
Shoshone Slim, that was a very eloquint reprahasing, I must add!
But, like it or not, that don't change what appears to be a historical fact: if you shoot one handed, you can't win the "overall" title at a match if someone else who is almost as good, shoots two handed.
And, I wager that if some of the top shooters suddenly switched to one handed shooting styles, they would loose their crown/buckle/trophy to the next best shooter who was using a two handed weaver stance.
And the point is? If you want to win overall, shoot two handed, or not win overall.
Posted by Irish Red O'Toole, #48939 (Member # 13828) on March 29, 2004 01:31 PMMarch 29, 2004 01:31 PM:
VRH,
That's the choice you make when you sign up at the beginning of the day. If the "Overall" title is important to you, you know what you need to do.
I agree with Slim. Time to end.
Posted by Beefalo Bart, SASS #56441 (Member # 17152) on March 29, 2004 01:59 PMMarch 29, 2004 01:59 PM:
Glue Factory Called they said the deal is off this horse has been dead for too long, and had too many bruises from the abuse. I would like to donate a headstone for the funeral, and can send some flowers if needed. I had a card ready but it said "Get Well Soon" seems that its to late for that card.
Who has a shovel that can lend a hand here...........
Posted by Trapdoor Billy (Member # 12012) on March 29, 2004 02:01 PMMarch 29, 2004 02:01 PM:
quote:
Originally posted by Shoshone Slim, SASS #31347:
Allow me to rephrase....
Isn't it about time for this moronic slice of defecation to come to an end?...Darn!
Much better.
Posted by onery arlys,sass#51382 (Member # 15123) on March 29, 2004 02:08 PMMarch 29, 2004 02:08 PM:
now now now everyone has a right to post and repost what they feel is important and it is our right to respond in a civil manner if we wish to . or in a uncivil manner if we do not mind bing pulled when found out .......we need to agree to disagree and understand no every one believes the way we ourselfs do that is truly what makes this country great i shoot two hands and shoot with one when i want to see just how bad i really am
Posted by Virgil Ray Hality, SASS# 37355 (Member # 6341) on March 29, 2004 02:24 PMMarch 29, 2004 02:24 PM:
Irish Red O'Toole, now you got it! Your choice is made for you....by the competition...if you want to win the overall....and if winning ain't important (by whatever rationalization you have) then loose.....uh, er,...politely...I mean then, "not win" or don't compete, kind of like quitting before trying.
Posted by Yakima Kid, SASS #28088L (Member # 2251) on March 29, 2004 03:30 PMMarch 29, 2004 03:30 PM:
Yadda Yadda Yadda!
Blah Blah Blah!
Yadda Yadda Yadda!
Blah Blah Blah!!
Wouldn't you agree, Joe?
Posted by Big Spring Kid, Life Member # 32163 (Member # 7285) on March 29, 2004 03:41 PMMarch 29, 2004 03:41 PM:
Please deposit:
http://www.bigspringkid.com/home_005.htm
BSK
Posted by Sodbuster Oliver Bend, SASS #46387 (Member # 17068) on March 29, 2004 04:17 PMMarch 29, 2004 04:17 PM:
Trapdoor Billy,
I think for a lot of people his post attract a lot of attention because is kind of fun to see just how easy it is to get poor Joe's goat. Maybe not the kindest thing but it seems to be the prevelant theme in his posts. He chatters and others respond and it would seem mostly to see what kind of repetition Joe will put back on the wire. It is kind of like in the movie "The Wild Bunch", where the kids are teasing the scorpion before the ants kill it. Not kind but somewhat entertaining. Joe should talk to the Wild Bunch, see what they have say after all it is their game isn't it?
Posted by Trapdoor Billy (Member # 12012) on March 29, 2004 04:21 PMMarch 29, 2004 04:21 PM:
Sodbuster,
I think Joe is getting everyone elses goat.
Posted by BisleyJoe 29738 (Member # 9905) on March 29, 2004 05:05 PMMarch 29, 2004 05:05 PM:
Posted by Lucky Deuce 1951, SASS #35350 (Member # 10638) on March 28, 2004 05:53 PMMarch 28, 2004 05:53 PM:
Well Said...
Thanks pard.
Posted by Ornery Orr, SASS #51137 (Member # 15058) on March 28, 2004 06:11 PMMarch 28, 2004 06:11 PM:
HEY BISLEY JOE!!!
I see the words your typing, but all I'm reading is BLAH!,BLAH!,BLAH!,BLAH!,BLAH!
That sir, is quite evident. Thank you for your Cowboy spirit though!
Posted by Filthy Harry, SASS #24924 (Member # 379) on March 28, 2004 06:33 PMMarch 28, 2004 06:33 PM:
Dang I'm glad I live in Wisconsin. Loooong way from Florida.
Behold: the power of CHEESE!!
Posted by Johnny Lightning (Member # 13042) on March 28, 2004 07:08 PMMarch 28, 2004 07:08 PM:
Hey BJ,
If you joined a Greco-Roman wrestling team and someone came up with a new move you'd be writing an article about it saying it wasn't right. You're unhappy. That's you. It doesn't matter what the subject is, you're going to find something to complain about.
To all the rest of you posters I say this. If what BJ says or writes bothers you then don't answer him with your posts. THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT HE WANTS!!!! He's thriving on this. Ignore him. Maybe he'll go away. FAR AWAY!! Quit giving him what he needs because this seems to be all he needs. Sorry I had to add to it. Adios.
You still haven’t answered the question. Come on now: If you joined a Greco-Roman wrestling team would you try and use Karate? So the rest of the posters have to listen to the advice you give but don’t follow. Ahh.
Posted by Brother Angel, #15713 (Member # 7900) on March 28, 2004 07:16 PMMarch 28, 2004 07:16 PM:
Bisley Joe,
Pard, you have put up the longest posts I have ever seen.
Folks,
Has it occurred to you that neither side has given an inch. When both sides are convinced they are right, arguin' just raises the temperature. (Ask the Israeli and the Palestinians).If this disagreement had taken place in 1884, instead of 2004, somebody would have gone for their guns a long time ago.If in 1784, seconds would have been chosen, duels fought, and the losers buried before this string got to page two.I wish we could concentrate on the things we do agree with, like we love shooting, and Cowboy shooting is lots of fun, and good for families, and stuff like that.In some families, at get-together time, you just can't talk about politics, or religion, or whatever. It just leads to arguin' and fightin' among the family. One or two handed shootin', and hot loads vs peewee loads, are like that in our family. Keep it up and good friends are gonna wind up enemies.Like it or not, this is a mixed sport. Purists maybe oughta think about joining NCOWS, or going into reenacting. Those activities are good too, just different. SASS is more inclusive than that. Mustered-out Civil War soldiers to TV cowboys are all under the same tent. Some love to get dressed up and shoot for fun. Others love to dress a little, and shoot real fast. Some focus on the camaraderie, others on winning. Why not pick what you want to be, and let the others do the same. Besides, it's really all about an excuse to get new toys.New folks lookin' in and seein' all this arguin' are still impressed, but not the way we want them to be. Maybe a little more thinkin', and a lot less arguin', ought to be the order for the day. Let's clean up this camp, and smile a little more, OK? We have a lot to be thankful for.
Brother Angel, while I understand what you are saying, please understand that I am only proposing to let period shooters have equal representation. What is the point of having a period game if the only people who get major recognition are the ones playing it in anachronistic ways? What’s the point of calling it Cowboy Action Shooting if we loose the Cowboy part of it? I am really amazed that the rules: “It is the intention and hope of SASS these requirements will serve to preserve and protect Cowboy Action Shooting™ from the gimmickry and technical gamesmanship that have had such a negative effect on other shooting disciplines.”, is being ignored. While I want to be happy and get along, what’s the use of friendship when one side will keep it only as long as the other stays quiet? What value does keeping peace have when others use it only to change the game to benefit them? Nothing that I have said even implies not letting others have their fun or view. In fact all I have said is the opposite: that we can ALL do this without disenfranchising anyone. This is COWBOY Action Shooting and, as the rules say, “a combination of historical re-enactment and Saturday morning at the matinee.” We can all smile and say we’re friends, but take a look at some of the responses here. Look at how some continue to post insults and rude comments. The attitude of “I don’t care!” “I just want to shoot.” has led us to this. Through the fear of losing “friends” we have assured the deterioration of a great pastime. It reminds me of the 2nd Amendment issue: Working at a local shooting range as a range officer/instructor I heard folks with old firearms say “Those laws will never affect me! I shoot a ….”. I agree that we need more thinking and less arguing. I’ll be happy to be friends with anyone and everyone, but I’d like to see those who’ve practically taken the whole yard give back at least an inch or two. Bisley Joe
Posted by Ethan Cord (Member # 1172) on March 28, 2004 09:02 PMMarch 28, 2004 09:02 PM:
Joe, for me the fact that the SASS handbook speaks of combining history and matinee leaves things wide open for all types of folks to find a way to enjoy themselves. Personally I think that if some dude showed up wearing blue spandex tights like the Lone Ranger he probably would have taken a pretty good beating in the real old west. How many women and children gunfighters do you think were around in the old days? Should we bar women and kids to be accurate? That would certainly disenfranchise an important part of our family but it would make the sport more period correct. I really don't worry about the overall winner, they are just folks like us, and like us they are going to drive home in the same car they came in. No one wins new cars and no one takes home a prize money check. This is for fun.
Ethan, while you make some excellent points, dressing like the Lone Ranger does not give anyone a disadvantage or advantage, and it still falls in the rules, since it’s from an old TV episode. We know that this game is, to many, not for fun anymore. It’s become an arena to win at any cost, even if that cost is totally deteriorating the historical part of the game. I’ve spoken to plenty of folks who agree. If every winner in every category is truly a “champion” then they should all be recognized, and, why do we need overall?
Posted by Sodbuster Oliver Bend, SASS #46387 (Member # 17068) on March 28, 2004 11:03 PMMarch 28, 2004 11:03 PM:
There is nothing in any post by Joe that shows anything leading to discussion. Joe has his opinion and doesn't let anything resembling logic or facts enter into the equation. Just says the same thing over and over. He has the right to waste his time however he chooses, sorry he doesn't see others should be given the same rights. When a opinion differring from his is made the insults from him just start to flow. May not always be blatant, though some are most assuredly blatant. So chatter on Joe, NO one cares.
You certainly seem to care enough to keep posting. If I say the same thing over and over it’s because I’m trying to explain something. Funny you should mention the rights of others, as all I’ve been saying is to respect the rights of Cowboy shooters to be equally represented in COWBOY Action Shooting.. When have I cursed at anyone here, or insulted anyone simply because they disagreed with me?
Posted by Shoshone Slim, SASS #31347 (Member # 12478) on March 29, 2004 12:34 PMMarch 29, 2004 12:34 PM:
Allow me to rephrase....
Isn't it about time for this moronic slice of defecation to come to an end?...Darn!
That’s a little better in language, but just as childish as before. Shoshone, I already had to put you on the ignore list because you wouldn’t stop emailing me even after I asked you several times to please stop. It is evident that your lack of respect, both for yourself and others, is approached only by your desire to harass and disrupt. We all know just how low you can go now, so I challenge you to contribute an intelligent opinion, pro or against.
Posted by Yakima Kid, SASS #28088L (Member # 2251) on March 29, 2004 03:30 PMMarch 29, 2004 03:30 PM:
Yadda Yadda Yadda!Blah Blah Blah!Yadda Yadda Yadda!Blah Blah Blah!!Wouldn't you agree, Joe?
Indeed it would seem that’s all some of these folks are capable of making out of a worthwhile debate. Lucky Deuce’s comment about talking to a mule was pretty accurate, except that a mule would probably have more decency than some of the folks insulting and disrupting here and elsewhere.
Posted by Sodbuster Oliver Bend, SASS #46387 (Member # 17068) on March 29, 2004 04:17 PMMarch 29, 2004 04:17 PM:
I think for a lot of people his post attract a lot of attention because is kind of fun to see just how easy it is to get poor Joe's goat. Maybe not the kindest thing but it seems to be the prevelant theme in his posts. He chatters and others respond and it would seem mostly to see what kind of repetition Joe will put back on the wire. It is kind of like in the movie "The Wild Bunch", where the kids are teasing the scorpion before the ants kill it. Not kind but somewhat entertaining. Joe should talk to the Wild Bunch, see what they have say after all it is their game isn't it?
Sodbuster! That WAS FUNNY!! Your trying so hard to disrupt a post that your intentions are transparent. Pard, you obviously can’t debate this issue, so you’re trying to cloud it up to appear “intelligent”. The constant childish comments, the endless senseless commentary, and the total lack of respect on the part of yourself and your small group of silly friends may very well get this thread locked up. But all you’re doing is proving that you can’t argue a valid point without stomping your feet and crying like a brat to drown out everyone else. If the thread was senseless or useless, as has been said by some, you wouldn’t even be writing in it. What’s really happening is that you’re turned inside out from not being able to shut someone up.
You still haven’t answered the question. Come on now: If you joined a Greco-Roman wrestling team would you try and use Karate?
There hasn’t been a single good reason expressed that defends allowing Cowboy Action Shooting to be dominated by IPSC tactics, or that argues against letting us all win in category. Yeah, we’ve heard that we are “all” champions, that we should just “have fun”, but those are hardly more than feel good comments with no real substance.
(By the way: Thanks to all of you who have contributed in an intelligent and civil manner.)
The issue isn’t winning or loosing: it is how we go about conducting ourselves. We’ve heard over and over that it isn’t the equipment but the practice which makes champs, and I agree. So why not practice, compete, and be a champ using the techniques and equipment which are consistent with the era we are trying to represent? Or at least, why not be satisfied with keeping anachronistic techniques in their own category, like all the others?
Posted by Doc Shapiro (Member # 4158) on March 29, 2004 05:22 PMMarch 29, 2004 05:22 PM:
Joe, let me ask a simple question.
Is the basis of your position: one handed style shooters aren't getting recognition and that the match winner (who is probably using 2 hands) getting most of it?
Or is it that 2-handed style shooting is allowed?
Or both?
Doc
[ March 29, 2004, 05:25 PM: Message edited by: Doc Shapiro ]
Posted by Kid Raven (Member # 16756) on March 29, 2004 05:31 PMMarch 29, 2004 05:31 PM:
quote:
Originally posted by BisleyJoe 29738:
There hasn’t been a single good reason expressed that defends allowing Cowboy Action Shooting to be dominated by IPSC tactics, or that argues against letting us all win in category. Yeah, we’ve heard that we are “all” champions, that we should just “have fun”, but those are hardly more than feel good comments with no real substance.
[/QB]
You just keep runnin' on with all this BS. There has been 2 handed shooting in CAS since before there was a outfit called SASS. It wasn't, isn't, nor will be a period game. It's a fantasy game and the 2 handed shooters are playing within the rules. If you don't like the rules you can ask the Wild Bunch to change them, but I bet they won't.
So get over it, or go form a posse that wants to play by your rules.
Posted by Shoshone Slim, SASS #31347 (Member # 12478) on March 29, 2004 06:09 PMMarch 29, 2004 06:09 PM:
quote:
Originally posted by BisleyJoe 29738:
There hasn’t been a single good reason expressed that defends allowing Cowboy Action Shooting to be dominated by IPSC tactics,
Here's the only reason that matters...That's what the Wild Bunch wants.
Oh and by the way.....I know you are but what am I?
I'm rubber you're glue everything you say bounces off me and sticks to you!
Posted by Dirty Dusty SASS# 52963 (Member # 15404) on March 29, 2004 06:12 PMMarch 29, 2004 06:12 PM:
BJ,
I believe being period correct would mean survival of the fittest. That means do what ever it takes to come out on top. In the old west that is how it was. If you sat back and whined you got your butt shot off. This is a game of speed and skill. If you want to win quit typing your life away and go practice!! You need to learn how to adapt and overcome.
Posted by Magnum Jack, SASS #49344 (Member # 14904) on March 29, 2004 06:18 PMMarch 29, 2004 06:18 PM:
I refuse to take sides in this discussion. However, I think this thread is done.
Moderators, please lock it down. It is no longer an exchange of interest. It is taking the fun out of the SASS Wire.
Posted by BisleyJoe 29738 (Member # 9905) on March 29, 2004 06:42 PMMarch 29, 2004 06:42 PM:
Posted by Doc Shapiro (Member # 4158) on March 29, 2004 05:22 PMMarch 29, 2004 05:22 PM:
Joe, let me ask a simple question.
Is the basis of your position: one handed style shooters aren't getting recognition and that the match winner (who is probably using 2 hands) getting most of it?
Or is it that 2-handed style shooting is allowed?
Or both?
Doc
Doc Shapiro, the first one, sort of. I believe we should compete in class. I also believe that if any style should reign and represent Cowboy Action Shooting it should be the style that is Cowboy, or period. I have no problem with two handed shooting in their own class/category. That’s why I believe that Overall should be eliminated.
Posted by Kid Raven (Member # 16756) on March 29, 2004 05:31 PMMarch 29, 2004 05:31 PM:
You just keep runnin' on with all this BS. There has been 2 handed shooting in CAS since before there was a outfit called SASS. It wasn't, isn't, nor will be a period game. It's a fantasy game and the 2 handed shooters are playing within the rules. If you don't like the rules you can ask the Wild Bunch to change them, but I bet they won't. So get over it, or go form a posse that wants to play by your rules.
Kid Raven, what good does it do to be rude? This is a discussion. You don’t have to agree and I don’t have to concede. SASS is indeed a period game, according to the rules even. Let’s review:
“The truly unique aspect of Cowboy Action Shooting™ is the requirement placed on authentic period or western screen dress. Each participant is required to adopt a shooting alias appropriate to a character or profession of the late 19th century, or a Hollywood western star, and develop a costume accordingly.”
“American history buffs and serious shooters alike agree the use of vintage firearms, authentic costuming, unique targets, and fast action make Cowboy Action Shooting™ one of the most interesting of all shooting sports for both spectator and contestant.”
“The firearm must “look” period.”
“Cowboy Action Shooting™ is a combination of historical re-enactment and Saturday morning at the matinee. Participants may choose the style of costume they wish to wear, but all clothing must be typical of the late 19th century, a B western movie, or Western television series. SASS puts a great deal of emphasis on costuming because it adds so much to the uniqueness of our game and helps create a festive, informal atmosphere that supports the friendly, fraternal feeling we encourage in our competitors.”
Posted by Dirty Dusty SASS# 52963 (Member # 15404) on March 29, 2004 06:12 PMMarch 29, 2004 06:12 PM:
I believe being period correct would mean survival of the fittest. That means do what ever it takes to come out on top. In the old west that is how it was. If you sat back and whined you got your butt shot off. This is a game of speed and skill. If you want to win quit typing your life away and go practice!! You need to learn how to adapt and overcome.
You are missing the point here, the IPSC/Weaver type of shooting being done in SASS was never done in the 19th Century or before. Except for perhaps a long distance precision shot, people shot one handed, in the Old West that’s actually how it was done. Your statement about practicing proves that you either haven’t read my posts or responses, or that you simply don’t want to understand.
The rules state:
Cowboy Action Shooting™ is a combination of historical re-enactment and Saturday morning at the matinee. Participants may choose the style of costume they wish to wear, but all clothing must be typical of the late 19th century, a B western movie, or Western television series. SASS puts a great deal of emphasis on costuming because it adds so much to the uniqueness of our game and helps create a festive, informal atmosphere that supports the friendly, fraternal feeling we encourage in our competitors.
The truly unique aspect of Cowboy Action Shooting™ is the requirement placed on authentic period or western screen dress. Each participant is required to adopt a shooting alias appropriate to a character or profession of the late 19th century, or a Hollywood western star, and develop a costume accordingly.
It is the intention and hope of SASS these requirements will serve to preserve and protect
Cowboy Action Shooting™ from the gimmickry and technical gamesmanship that have had such a negative effect on other shooting disciplines.
Still no answer to the question I see.
Posted by Magnum Jack, SASS #49344 (Member # 14904) on March 29, 2004 06:18 PMMarch 29, 2004 06:18 PM:
I refuse to take sides in this discussion. However, I think this thread is done.
Moderators, please lock it down. It is no longer an exchange of interest. It is taking the fun out of the SASS Wire.
It is an exchange of ideas, save for a few who can’t stand not being able to shut someone up. Dude, if it ain’t fun, if you don’t like it, move on. I realize that your goal is to get this thread locked out (as you have indeed taken sides), but that only proves you are threatened by the truth. By the way, very “Cowboy” of you.
I’m not doing this for fun or self. I really like CAS and SASS and don’t want to see it ruined. It has become clear just how threatened by fact and the truth some folks are.
I asked the question several times about coming into a Greco-Roman wrestling club and using Karate. Still no answer.
[ March 29, 2004, 06:45 PM: Message edited by: BisleyJoe 29738 ]
Posted by Gold Canyon Kid #43974 (Member # 11280) on March 29, 2004 06:48 PMMarch 29, 2004 06:48 PM:
For those that think SASS is growing too fast, a few more posts like this and a few more editorials in CC like this one will solve the rapid growth problem for a long time to come. Let's do something fun like shooting, or talking about all the new younger shooters that are breathing life into our sport.
Posted by Black Harris, SASS #154 (Member # 777) on March 29, 2004 07:06 PMMarch 29, 2004 07:06 PM:
Since the comments are being rehashed and the insult rate is rising, it is time to lock this thread.
Black Harris
Labels: Action, Bisley, CAS, Colt, Cowboy, Evil Roy, Gold Canyon Kid, Joe, Old West, SASS, Shooting, Shoshone Slim, Single Action Shooting Society, Sixgun Shorty
