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Posted by BisleyJoe 29738 (Member # 9905) on March 23, 2004 08:15 PMMarch 23, 2004 08:15 PM:

I wrote the article that appeared on page 30 of the March Cowboy Chronicle. Somehow my alias got lost, or I screwed up and left it out. Either way, I was as honored to see it as I was surprised. (My photo, by the way, was taken by my very good friend Doc Whiplash.) The same article appeared on The Wire about a year ago. Back then there was a great deal of reading into what I said. I hope this time around more folks will actually read what I wrote.

Why bring anachronistic tactics to a period Game?

I thoroughly enjoy CAS and meeting so many nice people with similar likes. I am interested in the fun, the dressing up, and even in the competition. I am also interested in preserving this game as it was meant to be played. So I’ll explain why I wrote that article.

Though not a reenactment, CAS is a period pastime, and a fantasy sport. We can all agree on that, right? What I don’t get is why anyone would come into a period/fantasy sport to compete with tactics and methods that are completely anachronistic. There’s IPSC, with its competition first ideology. Though this is fine for that game, anyone who’s remotely familiar with IPSC knows that the loophole jumping, the “if it’s not mentioned in the rules its legal” attitude, and the “pro” aspect, have negatively affected that sport. I see this is happening in SASS, and it’s getting worse.

Our sport is being perverted into an IPSC match with costumes. Now we have short stroke kits for some rifles, steel-lined holsters that are almost skeleton holsters, speed straps, minimalist costumes, and other ridiculous perversions of the Spirit of the Game. I’ve seen photos of “champs” where the only reason you can tell they’re in SASS is ‘cause they’re wearing a Cowboy hat! “Top” players are being sponsored by major companies - including guns with their names on them (even when they used other brands to win). Some of these “champs” are even making their own shooting schools and teaching others how to weasel through the loopholes and further pollute our sport. Wasn’t the whole point of SASS to have a fun sport with no “pro” status and no big prizes?

I’ve been at several events where there’s a major competition and it turns into all out IPSC. The true Spirit of the Game pards have to decide whether to go to modern tactics for a chance of winning, or just shoot the period way and loose. Yet there are still those who have the audacity to call whoever protests a “whiner” or to say “go make your own game.” Talk about shamelessness!

There’s a lot of talk about how popular this sport is, but is popularity worth the price of loosing our purpose? We all want to be friendly, but is it right to keep smiling while those who want to play the game as it was meant to be played are pushed to the side? How honorable is it to come into a period sport, dominate the wins with modern tactics, and then tell others to “just have fun”? It’s pretty outrageous! Would you join a Greco-Roman wrestling club, use modern wrestling techniques, and then call the “purists” whiners for protesting?

We’ve discussed two handed shooting and its authenticity etc. Despite many attempts to use the absence of proof as justification for shooting with two hands and cocking with the weak hand thumb, running around using the Weaver stance, and loading bullets to ridiculously low levels, it just doesn’t fly. Nobody back then shot like that. Nobody back then, whether they shot a .32 or a .45 deliberately used ammunition so underpowered that the bullet could be seen gliding away.

Sure, we use gun carts and safety glasses, and we don’t ride to matches on horseback. But none of those things affect the actual competition. Some use modern powder. I have used modern powder myself, primarily because I had no other way to shoot and am currently working on switching totally to The Holly Black. The game is a period game, we may use some Hollywood ideas, we may romanticize, and that’s fine, but we got into it to play Cowboy. Yeah, the rules don’t cover some things, and we all want as few rules as possible. Well, freedom requires responsibility. I’m sure the dudes who started this had no idea that there would be so many loopholes, or so many who would exploit them. The minimal rules allow people to get involved without being overwhelmed. They allow newcomers to participate and learn, adding to their game, improving their experience and knowledge with each event. I was able to get into SASS primarily because of my good friend Doc Whiplash. He loaned me guns and a rig for my first shoot, even gave me ammo. But I had the respect for The Spirit of the Game to wait until I had at least the right clothes before attending. My first boots were a pair of old pointy cowboy boots, and I sewed some black vinyl into stovepipe tops for them. They were uncomfortable and they were hot, but everybody thought they were real, and, most importantly, it was up to me to play the right way. To say “if it ain’t in the rules it’s ok” is a copout and, in my opinion, unethical at best. Common sense, ethics, and honor should guide us, not the lust to “win”.

So why bring anachronistic tactics to a period game? Isn’t it more honorable to play it how it was meant to be played? Isn’t it more of a challenge? Isn’t it more fun? And if you just have to use modern tactics, isn’t it the honorable thing to do - even if the rules don’t cover it, even if not many are protesting - to insist that you don’t compete against those who play this game to be at least somewhat authentic?

Bisley Joe
SASS 29738

Posted by Gold Canyon Kid #43974 (Member # 11280) on March 23, 2004 08:23 PMMarch 23, 2004 08:23 PM:

Why don't you play the game the way you want to play and quit trying to tell the rest of us what to do?

Posted by RDS95991 (Member # 16691) on March 23, 2004 08:38 PMMarch 23, 2004 08:38 PM:

I enjoyed your reprint here.

I am just starting out. I finally got the guns together and now I am working on the rigs and costume. To that end, I have been reading these posts to find out as much as possible.

Many times I am confused about nature of this sport. Authenticity and fun are mentioned, but then you read about modifications and light loads which would not have been available or even desirable.

I find it humorous that you can trick out a gun with space age technology, but not have soles on your boots that could save you a nasty slip and perhaps dangerous fall.

Oh well, maybe one day I will understand it all.

Posted by Lukas Haas SASS # 39575 (Member # 4993) on March 23, 2004 08:46 PMMarch 23, 2004 08:46 PM:

Methinks I hear the beating of a very dead horse again.

Posted by WOGG 28699 LIFE (Member # 17336) on March 23, 2004 08:50 PMMarch 23, 2004 08:50 PM:

I dont diagree but i dont agree as long as you have fun playing the game your way.
dont worry about the way others play
all i can say is have fun your way
and thats all that matters is that your having fun

Posted by Joehawk (Member # 13250) on March 23, 2004 09:09 PMMarch 23, 2004 09:09 PM:

I would like to answer some questions and reply to some statements (from my point of view) posed in the March Chronicle article titled “What’s The Point of SASS/Cowboy Action Shooting?”

1. The first question is asked in the title of the article, “What’s The Point of SASS/Cowboy Action Shooting?” The point of SASS is cowboy action shooting is shooting. SASS stands for Single Action Shooting Society. There are many fascinating and fun aspects to this game but it is primarily it is a shooting sport/game. You can tell its a game because they keep score. I would dare say if SASS were to became a nonshooting Western dress up social club there would be allot less members.

2. Statement, “WE all agree we are here to have fun; competing is part of that fun for many. But the way in which we have that fun is, above all, in the recreation of the era of The West and its styles.” Well I decide not to agree with the statement about the way in which I am supposed to have fun. Fun for me is the shooting competition, seeing if I can improve my shooting, practicing, the fellowship of my fellow shooters, talking about guns, equipment, reloading, designing courses of fire and building props for the stages.

3. Question, “Isn’t the Spirit of the Game to relive the Western era?” The answer is no. The Spirit of the Game is a rule found in the SASS Shooters Handbook and nowhere does it mention anything about reliving the Western era. Its about good sportsmanship.

4. Question, “When and where , movie, TV show, written word, or historical documentation, has anyone EVER seen or heard of a pistoleer or ANYBODY for that mater , shooting using two hands and slip thumbing?” The answer is that if you will watch the classic Western movie, “The Magnificent Seven“, you will see Steve McQueen on three different occasions using his left hand to support his wrist of his shooting hand and James Coburn makes a shot using both hands wrapped around the pistol grip, using the two hand pistol hold seen at SASS Matches. Two hands also were often used in the movies also to fan a pistol. Fanning a pistol is not allowed in SASS competition for obvious reasons.

5. Statement, “We are trying to recreate the era and its styles.” I for one am not trying to recreate the era and its styles.

6. Question, “Are we turning into the IPSC crowd?” The answer is no, we are already, in part, the IPSC crowd. I know of at least 30 SASS shooters, including myself, that are current or former IPSC shooters. IPSC shooters play a different game with a different set rules and are some of the finest people I know. If the question is referring to the equipment race in IPSC, which is within the IPSC rules, I have bad news, the equipment race is already here in SASS. If the question is about gaming the courses of fire to gain a advantage, that is also for the most part within the IPSC rules, but not within the Spirit of the Game in SASS.

7. Statement, “BUT DO IT IN A MANNER CONSISTENT WITH THE ERA.” I for one will do in in a manner consistent with safety and the rules.

The bottom line is that there are many reasons to be a member of SASS and while one boot may fit many, it will never fit all. The rules in the SASS hand book have established several shooting categories with enough different shooting styles that it seems to satisfy most shooters.

SASS is a great organization, family orientated, with a membership made up of some of the best folks you’ll ever run into. SASS is sometimes referred to as a fantasy sport. Well everyone can have their fantasy and I’ll have mine.
Joe Hawk

Posted by Buck Elliott, SASS #6177 (Member # 5261) on March 23, 2004 09:12 PMMarch 23, 2004 09:12 PM:

"Why don't you play the game the way you want to play and quit trying to tell the rest of us what to do? "
Gold Canyon Kid -- maybe you should take a little of your own advice... The Gamers will always look down their greasy, patrician noses at those who play "The Game" the old-timey way, and whine about the folks who criticize their gamery. Always been that way; prob'ly always will, but that don't make it right. There are bullies, manipulators, and pompous @$$es in this game, just like any other, and that don't make it right either.

Regards,

Buck -- who can play it either way, but prefers the 'period' aspect of the game.

(BTW: anyone have a good, used anachronometer for sale, rent or lease?)

[ March 23, 2004, 09:14 PM: Message edited by: Buck Elliott, SASS #6177 ]

Posted by Wes Durn SASS#18998 (Member # 11766) on March 23, 2004 09:14 PMMarch 23, 2004 09:14 PM:

Well...thanks for sharing...

[ March 23, 2004, 09:18 PM: Message edited by: Wes Durn SASS#18998 ]

Posted by Cimarron Red, SASS 18460 (Member # 338) on March 23, 2004 09:22 PMMarch 23, 2004 09:22 PM:

Joe,

It's a simple and very valid point you make, and of course one with which I agree. The evidence in your other post speaks for itself, and speaks volumes. Those who reject your evidence and your protestations do so out of the fear that you will convince those who can change the game to comply with its true spirit.

Also I find it interesting, but not surprising, that those who vehemently disagree with you should stoop to ad hominem attacks. Sacred cows (cowboys) can stand only so much kicking. I say, 'kick away', but don't try to do it simultaneously with both feet.

Posted by Wild Earp #7904L (Member # 4755) on March 23, 2004 09:26 PMMarch 23, 2004 09:26 PM:

Howdy,

I have finally reached a point where I don't much care what other pards wear or carry. I am there for the fun. And the fun begins after the shooting stops. Pards want to make money at this, go for it! Who really cares. Leave the attitudes at home. It is kinda like carrying a bone stock Glock to a highly regimented IPSC competition. When you stomp a group of highly vocal, poser, big spender's snakes into the dirt with your spiked golfing cowboy boots, the drinks are still just as well mixed and cold as if it had never happened. Heck, the hardware race is well beyond a free gun, free ammo, free match fees, or free plane ticket. Some pards are driving half million dollar or more 10 wheeled houses to matches that have NO PRIZE MONEY!

It is fun being a part of it all. All the rest is low cost entertainment!

Posted by Rancid Roy (Member # 8296) on March 23, 2004 09:31 PMMarch 23, 2004 09:31 PM:

Not to be snooty but now you know how the "Founding Fathers" felt/feel. They wrote the Constitution and since that time it has been squeezed, poked, played, and prodded until it is no longer the document it was supposed to be. This because the judges and attorneys have "interpreted" it beyond its meaning.

SASS will be the same way. The rules were written to allow the largest groups of people to play. I think the SASS founders were smart. This game has attracted more people than any other shooting sport ever.

That is because it appeals to a wide variety of folks. Competitors can come and be their best. Historians can come and relive the past. Movie fans can come and partake in a small part of the movie roles they enjoy watching. Friendly folks can come and hang out and socialize.

If the rules of SASS become too much, and if the categories become too many; then the appeal will be also become just as fractured. With too many trophies the term "winner" becomes meaningless. Without winners there is no competition.

If we "level the playing field" we will get the same sort of reward that we are currently getting from our government services. They have "leveled the playing field" and we are now saddled with too much mediocrity and inefficiency. I know, I work for the U.S. government.

This game speaks to lots of folks in many different ways.

I shoot beside folks who are better shots than me and much faster as well. I am not the least put off by that because even though we are shooting in the same match we are aspiring to separate goals.

This weekend I will shoot in the New Mexico State match in Silver City. No doubt my posse will have "top-shooters" on it. But I will be there too.

The first day I will be a bearded, "Plainsman" shooting my Shiloh Sharps, 1860 Armies, and my hammer 12 gauge....all with full-house black powder loads. And I will be fairly, properly attired for the time period. The second day I will be a clean-shaven "Pinkerton" man who just got off the train in his "fancy suit" and has come to town to hunt down his "marks". The last day that same "Pink" will be attired in his "range clothes" as he has to go out into the wild canyons of New Mexico and hunt down the rest of the "gang". That Pinkerton will be carrying an 1873 Winchester [Uberti] in 44-40, a Colt [Uberti] Sheriff's model in .45 colt, a Colt [Colt] 4 3/4 inch .44 Special, and a 12 gauge double. All loaded to full-house CAS approved smokeless loads. Lots of folks will shoot better than me. No one will have more fun than me.

I will get a kick out of the attire everyone else will be wearing and their interpretations of their own alias's as well. I will admire the "top-shooters" because they are entertaining, especially when they shoot lever-guns. I will see people I have not seen for a year and enjoy their company.

There will be a few people there who have trained very hard and applied their skills to be winners. I will once again think to myself that maybe, just maybe, I could do that too. But I don't have the time to train, nor the facilities. I'd have to give up my "fantasy" aspect of the game and shoot the same boring guns and wear the same boring, competitive leather to win.

Nope. I just want to have fun.

And there is an award at this meet that everyone can win. "Clean-shooters" get a plaque that is just as pretty and just a big as the top-shooters. And everybody has the capability to shoot a match clean. And frankly I find that "clean-shooting" is much more admirable than being "fast-but-still-missing-some".

I personlly think we should leave SASS as it is. The only thing we need is more guns to shoot. We "need" an 1876 Winchester repro for side matches. A S&W First Model Russian as well as a New Model #3, both in .44 Russian. And to satisfy those few who just have to have one, a Merwin and Hurlburt. Plus we need some more of the cartridge conversions in the Colt and Remington .36's and .31's.

No, we don't need more rules, we need more guns.

Posted by Silver Sam, SASS #34718L (Member # 4948) on March 23, 2004 09:32 PMMarch 23, 2004 09:32 PM:

Its Very Simple Joe... I find it hard to believe that you Missed it...

They Didn't have Timers in the Old West

My sugestion is to Quit Worrying about what the Other Feller is doing and Have Fun... However You want to!

The Greatest aspect of Our Sport is there's Plenty of Room for Everyone... Yep, Even the Whinners

Posted by Texican Scout (Member # 16120) on March 23, 2004 09:42 PMMarch 23, 2004 09:42 PM:

Joe, you are entitled to your opinion. I do believe your use of honor and ethics will generate a great deal of resentment as it loads your argument with a superior tone, which it does not deserve. This piece is just your opinion.

This post will likely become a flamefest and you will feel you have not been heard. If so, I suggest you try and rephrase your statement without using a broadside that implies insult.

Posted by Fargo Kid SASS # 27160 LIFE (Member # 11358) on March 23, 2004 09:43 PMMarch 23, 2004 09:43 PM:

B.J. - This is America and yer entitled your opinion.

Read what Wogg said !

Ya'll used some good adjectives in yer post's. If your playing this game within the confines of the rule's,( letter of the law ) Ya ain't Gamey, Unethical, or Unhonorable, a Weasel or using loopholes !

If ya'll want to shoot full house B.P. or smokeless loads , go a head. But don't bitch or whine cause ya'll ain't the top overall shooter, ya probably never will be !

This is a game, so defensive loads or hunting loads make little sense, unless ya want to shoot them , and truly kill the targets.

This is a competition, ya can be competative, or not give a hoot about it, and just have fun socializing. Or ya can hamstring yerself with junk gun,s or loads that don't allow you to be competative, whatever floats yer boat.

Spirit of the Game is the most important part of this sport, and has nothing to do with how you shoot, what loads ya shoot, or how you dress, or how competative ya are !

I am glad that a CAS shooter has his name or initial's on some guns, shows ya that some manufacterers are finally paying attention !

Historical accuracy can be argued forever, calibers, loads, clothes etc. Rules say Hat, Boots, and Shirt ?

The top shooters in this game earn it ! The old fashioned way !

Gamey by definition ( historically correct ), is an adjective to describe the way ya'll smell, as most Cowboys were Gamey !

Be Safe and Have Fun !

Fargo Kid

Posted by Irish Red O'Toole, #48939 (Member # 13828) on March 23, 2004 09:49 PMMarch 23, 2004 09:49 PM:

Post deleted by the author for no other reason than he doesn't want to add any moree fuel to this fire.

[ March 24, 2004, 12:17 PM: Message edited by: Irish Red O'Toole, #48939 ]

Posted by Sodbuster Oliver Bend, SASS #46387 (Member # 17068) on March 23, 2004 10:15 PMMarch 23, 2004 10:15 PM:

Joe,
You obviously have no idea how SASS was started. The main things was to dress up like your favorite western movie and have a good time shooting. Now if you want to be true to this shoot blanks like they do in the movies!
Of all the people I have met so far the vast majority are truly great people to be around. The top shooters, the so called professionals are by far away some of the hardest working and nicest people I have shot with. Not one discouraging word have I ever heard from a top shooter, yet I have heard many discouraging words about top shooters and every time it is from some mediocre shooter who wants to be better but isn't willing to put in the work to be a top shooter. Get a clue it isn't the equipment it is the work! All some equipment mod is going to give is a part of a second. If you don't believe that ask a top shooter to borrow one of their pieces and see if it puts you on top. Not a chance it takes work and more work. No one is making a dime being a top shooter, they are just spending a lot more time and money to take home a ribbon worth 50 cents on a good day. At the last NW regional shooter number 73 received the most expense prize from US Grant a model 1873 rifle. Not one top shooter had a chance at that prize because they all do too well. So go figure and think about what you are saying and why. Ask yourself how much help do you volunteer to a match and other shooters. If some one is good enough to get endorsement more power to them. If they are like many people and like gizmoes then fine. I am not at any disadvantage because of me equipment, I am only handicapped by my lack of practices and free time to go to matches.

Posted by Nubbins Colt #7802 (Member # 938) on March 23, 2004 10:36 PMMarch 23, 2004 10:36 PM:

Bisley Joe, I will not repeat everything I said in the other thread. You are bent way too tightly around the axle on this. I won't even try to be nice and patronize you a little. You're boring, your opinions are not facts, your ranting is annoying, and you don't get it. If you can't get over it can you at least be quiet? Nobody cares, pardner - we love Lead Dispencer, we love Handlebar Doc, we love Holy Terror, and we do not care if they shoot two handed, if they have short stroked rifles, use smokeless powder, and slip hammer all the way. This is a GIANT SOCIAL EVENT, a LOVE FEST, with a little angst thrown in to keep things on edge. You're way out of line.

***Nubbins Colt***

Posted by Knuckles Bandera #43963 (Member # 10653) on March 24, 2004 03:01 AMMarch 24, 2004 03:01 AM:

I see your point BisleyJoe. I've often wondered that myself.

I actually like to "reenaact" a little when I'm shooting a stage and really pretend that I'm attempting to re-live whatever the scenario really is. I notice many other folks just rush through the stage for the best time; hec, that's the game, the fastest time wins. But I want a little more. It doesn't bother me to see others play the way they want to play...I guess that's why that have different catagories.

BisleyJoe, I wanted to email you privately, but your profile does't have your email.

Please email me...thanks pard!

Posted by Grampaw Willie, SASS No.26996 (Member # 7333) on March 24, 2004 03:05 AMMarch 24, 2004 03:05 AM:

Because it's a game and not a re-enactment. In SASS you can carry the authenticity to whatever level you prefer. We don't got no authenticity police (we got some wanna-bees but we generally give them the business and they find a rock to hide under ).

ps

We like it that way. Jeans, work boots, flannel shirt and stuff something on yer head for a hat, show up and shoot!! Dress to the 9s and play a character!! "It's all good"!! Let's keep it that way !!

Posted by Train Robber 13659 (Member # 11896) on March 24, 2004 03:29 AMMarch 24, 2004 03:29 AM:

Hello Bisely Joe,

Have you met and socialized with any of the top shooters you seem to have such a poor opinion of? Have you become so good at something that a manufacturer or distributer of a product came to you for input,and brought out an additional,or modified product after you had proved it in field trials?
Cowboy shooting as you would have it would be great, no doubt about it. I suggest you form a local club and put on matches as you see fit. I would enjoy such a match. I believe NCOWS is the
way for you to go. By the way......do you shoot period firearms? Or...... anachronistic copies of them?
Regards, Train Robber

Posted by Gold Canyon Kid #43974 (Member # 11280) on March 24, 2004 03:36 AMMarch 24, 2004 03:36 AM:

Buck wrote:

"The Gamers will always look down their greasy, patrician noses at those who play "The Game" the old-timey way, and whine about the folks who criticize their gamery. Always been that way; prob'ly always will, but that don't make it right. There are bullies, manipulators, and pompous @$$es in this game, just like any other, and that don't make it right either."

Why do you consider it necessary to call other shooters names? Just because you disagree with how others play the game within the rules, is no reason to trash other shooters. I think you need to reread what I said, i.e. play the game how you enjoy it and let others do the same.

Posted by Big Law Dawg 18413 (Member # 9800) on March 24, 2004 03:39 AMMarch 24, 2004 03:39 AM:

I don't make many matches anymore, it seems, but I tend to agree with you for the most part. I competed in IPSC for about a decade before getting involved with CAS.

What I see in the CAS press in recent months and years reminds me of IPSC. There are three or four names and faces of CAS shooters that have been elevated to heroic levels. I won't mention names, but you see these same faces and names on every other page when you pick up a CAS magazine or the "Chronicle."

That said, the game allows a class for just about everybody's preference, so as long as matches exist, maybe it just doesn't matter. I just enjoy my guns and shoot them the way I want, both at home and at the few matches I attend, one-handed and with Holy Black!

I can shoot pretty darn fast myself with a semi-auto or double action revolver (got some prize guns to prove it), but with a good old single action "cowboy" gun, it just doesn't attract me to see how much blinding speed I can develop. Duelist just seems to be the way to go for me. It keeps me from getting back into that that mindset of trying to cut off another tenth of a second here and there. I can just focus on slinging heavy 250 gr. chunks of lead through lots of white smoke. Let others do what they want; it just don't get more "cowboy" than that!

Posted by Stoney Creek SASS4952 (Member # 13446) on March 24, 2004 03:46 AMMarch 24, 2004 03:46 AM:

Hello the fire

I just got the March CC yesterday so have not read the article.

In reading this thread I see that Bisely Joe mentions that Doc Whiplash is a very good friend.

Isn't Doc the person that stirred up all the ruckas on LD's rolled up sleeves awhile back

Birds of a feather fly together

Stoney

Posted by Mustang Gregg (Member # 13413) on March 24, 2004 03:49 AMMarch 24, 2004 03:49 AM:

BJ:

What guns do you shoot with?

MG

Posted by Curly McCrae (Member # 7211) on March 24, 2004 03:55 AMMarch 24, 2004 03:55 AM:

Why all this conversation over a subject that is much simpler than it might appear to be? If ya don't like the fact that a few shooters are makin some money off endorsements, don't buy the products that they endorse. Don't attend the shooting schools that they hold. You can speak much louder with your wallet than you ever will with a keyboard.

Posted by Carolina Lucky SASS#30020 (Member # 12859) on March 24, 2004 04:18 AMMarch 24, 2004 04:18 AM:

You sure do expend a lot of hot air defending an incorrect premise. One of Hickock's first gunfights is recorded, and states he made his shot two-handed. It is obvious two handed shooting was done. You and Doc sure like to stir the pot.

Carolina Lucky

Posted by Sixgun Shorty, SASS #35717 (Member # 7467) on March 24, 2004 04:35 AMMarch 24, 2004 04:35 AM:

Give it up...I appreciate your comments and that you took the time to write the article, but this subject has been beaten to death...Play the game your way within the rules and live and let live...
This subject is just plain boring and repetitive to excess.If you're that dissatisfied, find another game..or another subject, please.

Posted by Sergeant Smokepole #29248L (Member # 4065) on March 24, 2004 04:35 AMMarch 24, 2004 04:35 AM:

I shot in the Black Powder classes because that is what I do. Even in Modern Class, I shoot The Holy Black. Do I try to be the top shooter in the match?? NO! Do I try to have the most fun in the match??????? GRIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YUP! I do what I do and don't worry about anything but converting heathens to The Darkside by my Smoke!! BOOM!! GRIN!! and my actions.

Posted by Hondo O Hondo (Member # 11425) on March 24, 2004 04:37 AMMarch 24, 2004 04:37 AM:

Bisley Joe,

Get a life and do not worry so much about 'how' others live out their fantasies. This carcase truly smells....

Posted by Pee Wee 15785 (Member # 690) on March 24, 2004 04:46 AMMarch 24, 2004 04:46 AM:

Have you ever once asked not to be timed? Have you ever once been on a poise that was not timed? If not maybe you are one of the Gamerst. How can a person not dressing and shooting your way take from your fun? It sounds like you can't cut it in the fast lane. By the way the top questions I have done and I also shoot C&B just about every match, rain or shine, and all my rifle and shotgun loads are full caseloads.

Posted by Shoshone Slim, SASS #31347 (Member # 12478) on March 24, 2004 04:52 AMMarch 24, 2004 04:52 AM:

Well I came in from cleaning out the kennels and sat down and read this thread. I thought I'd seen all of the dog crap that I was going to hafta look at today. I didn't think that B.J. could top the load that he put out before but I stand corrected.
Nubbin's all I can say is AMEN brother!!!!

Shoshone (who is timed with a sun dial but has a hell of a good time) Slim

Posted by Buffalo Dick, SASS #12880 (Member # 2465) on March 24, 2004 04:52 AMMarch 24, 2004 04:52 AM:

As I recall, the last time you started this argument the thread ran to about 200 posts with most pards disagreeing with your factual assumptions about shooting styles and what CAS is all about. Their mostly polite and articulate arguments were ignored by you. To declare that only your vision of the sport is right and that others shooting different categories legally are 'unethical' is pure BS. I'd say Nubbins Colt told it like it is.

I respect your vision of the game and would not presume to tell you how you should play-you need to extend others the same courtesy.

Posted by Manatee (Member # 14503) on March 24, 2004 05:05 AMMarch 24, 2004 05:05 AM:

Hey Bisley Joe!

Yer pic looked real good in the Chronicle.

And Tex deserves and attaboy for printing a letter as potentially controversial as yours.

As to the merits of what ya had to say? I don't have an opinion. I'm having way too much fun shootin' in various categories and with various weaponry to worry about what the next puncher is gonna do.

Posted by Capt. Morgan Rum, SASS #6859 (Member # 14434) on March 24, 2004 05:22 AMMarch 24, 2004 05:22 AM:

F-A-N-T-A-S-Y

I hope everyone enjoys theirs in their own way.
THAT is what SASS is all about !!!

[ March 24, 2004, 05:24 AM: Message edited by: Capt. Morgan Rum, SASS #6859 ]

Posted by Aesop Mysleeve SASS #41655 (Member # 13455) on March 24, 2004 06:20 AMMarch 24, 2004 06:20 AM:

On his semi-occasional swing through the territory, the deputy for the SFTPOCTDEC tacked up the following broadside on a telegraph pole:

The Society For The Prevention Of Cruelty To Deceased Equine Critters herewith declares that the originator of this thread is in flagrant violation of the relevant ordinances.

Notice is given to kindly cease and desist, lest citation of notice to appear be given.

As to particulars, he said it was bad enough to have this topic posted in the CC, but to dredge it up again on the Wire is in the same league as people who invite all the neighbors over to see slides of their 27-day trip to the tractor factories of the Ukraine.

After posting the notice, the deputy made the observation that in 37 years of reading Car & Driver, he's never seen one letter arguing passionately that the Indy 500 should be raced by making constant right turns instead of left ones. It seemed to him that if driving enthusiasts could get used to accepting a sport for the way it always was, some cowboy shooters ought to get over trying to re-invent it their sport as well.

Posted by Harve Curry (Member # 7074) on March 24, 2004 06:37 AMMarch 24, 2004 06:37 AM:

Bisley Joe,
I see by your outfit that you are an artist, illustrator, cinematographor, writer, and more.
I am sure you are good at it, but pard this is a hornets nest of a topic.

Posted by Dead I. Dave (Member # 16257) on March 24, 2004 06:56 AMMarch 24, 2004 06:56 AM:

Anachronism?? I’m just a simple country boy. It that a frighten word? We used up all of the pages in the Sears catalog a few months ago and started on Mr. Webster’s book. I think the page with that word was used last week.

Posted by Three Legged Dog (Member # 10679) on March 24, 2004 07:12 AMMarch 24, 2004 07:12 AM:

Want to fix the problem real quick? Next year only those who are "gammers" sign up for EOT, anyone who says thay are in it for the fun stay home. Have the 10-20 people who win show up without the other 800 floating the bill, the problem will be addresses right fast. Don't work the big matches unless you are a gammer, are those same 10-20 going to able to put on the match? Take the game back, vote with your feet!

Any one who tells someone to "if you don't like it find something else" isn't the one one who puts on matches month after month, orginazies the larger events, stays after the match to put stuff away, comes out to the work parties..... They are the takers in the game, show up the last second, shoot the match, jump in the car and head home as fast as they can, go on the computer to complain about the match and want to know why the scores arn't posted yet.

TLD

Posted by Hondo O Hondo (Member # 11425) on March 24, 2004 07:32 AMMarch 24, 2004 07:32 AM:

3 ... Dog,

I think you are confusing "gamers" - that is people striving to shoot the best they can with in the existing rules - and people that are lazy, i.e., the ones you are complaining about not working and bitching. Think on it a while...

Posted by Doc Shapiro (Member # 4158) on March 24, 2004 07:33 AMMarch 24, 2004 07:33 AM:

TLD, I take some exception to your post. I'm there setting up, I write stages, I do the scores, donated some props, spot, RO, pick brass, etc.

However, I don't want to see folks out there that are not having fun because the reality of CAS doesn't match with their pre-conceived expectations. I really would rather they find the game that they like and play that one. Having folks in your posse that complain, nitpick, and aren't having fun doesn't make for a fun day.

It's pretty rare, I don't think I've seen it more than once or twice.

Doc

[ March 24, 2004, 07:46 AM: Message edited by: Doc Shapiro ]

Posted by Roscoe Coles, SASS #1188 (Member # 9015) on March 24, 2004 08:01 AMMarch 24, 2004 08:01 AM:

Bisley Joe:
Well said. The series of attacks and snivelings which your post has generated pretty much proves your point. I have been in the sport long enough to remember the way it was in the begining and let me tell you it was nothing like it is today. The culture of CAS was totally different back then. People would just not put up with the gamesmanship that is taken for granted today. The sport was started to get away from the IPSC mentality and enjoy shooting again. However, as with everything size and money changed everything. Personally, I have given up talking about the spirit of the game, most modern CAS shooters can't even grasp the concept and as you have seen they tend to turn on you like a pack of dogs. What your fighting in the secret desire that if they only had the right piece of gear, or cut the right corners, these guys could be "winners." What they fail to grasp is that by seeking to win at all costs they cheapen the sport, perpetuate a race to the bottom, and make any victory they may win meaningless. I'm not saying that the "top" shooters are not good shots and that they don't work hard at it, they are and they do. But if you banned all the gammy crap I think they would still be winning the matches. You would think that folks would have realized by now that this sport, like many others, is not about beating the other guy, its about being the best that you can be on any given day. After all, if you are only in it to win, all but one guy at each match are wasting their time. Kepp up the good work and don't let them get you down.

Posted by Missouri Dog Soldier, SASS # 56588 (Member # 17221) on March 24, 2004 08:17 AMMarch 24, 2004 08:17 AM:

Ok, I think his point is this. How many avoid IPSC on the grounds that it is nothing but hardcore competitive shooting....Not too many have fun coming in last in that sport. So, if SASS goes the same road, at some point membership may really drop off and/or few will renew after discovering all the clubs care about is competition. It has got to the point now where it cannot turn back, it's human nature and mostly male ego that drives us to be the best we can be. Fine for those that feel "driven" as long as those that feel no such need can still have fun.....Time will tell.....

Posted by Evil Roy (Member # 7779) on March 24, 2004 08:19 AMMarch 24, 2004 08:19 AM:

SASS is for shooting fun. Enjoy it at whatever level and for whatever reason you want. It is a competition as we keep score. Winners and losers. Sorry. Just for the record SASS was not started to do anything but shoot IPSC with cowboy guns. The Judge told me that a long time ago and just saw him again in an interview saying it again. Had nothing to do with true old west or anything else. It has evolved into much more and includes all kinds of things we all enjoy. So for all you folks who are up in arms over the competitive part if you are doing it for any other reason than competition you are ruining it for us "purists" using your logic. I really don't understand why all you folks who are into the "real" old west don't just shoot NCOWS and be happy. By the way the real old west had nothing to do with B westerns as you will find out if you show up at an NCOWS match with that type set up. They are a great bunch and are really into what you want. If you want a great outfit which has room for us all that would be SASS.

Posted by Sodbuster Oliver Bend, SASS #46387 (Member # 17068) on March 24, 2004 08:25 AMMarch 24, 2004 08:25 AM:

Hondo and Doc both have it right just like my previous post said. The biggest whiners don't do much but whine most of the time. It takes too much time to do all of the grunt work to have time left over for whining. Does Joe have a website that gives good advice for free and help make shooting safer for us all? I did a search but I couldn't find it, what do you know!! On the other hand Doc's site if very good and free and helpful and I can see from the background and his clothing he is just got money rolling out of his ears, NOT. Most likely from the wealth one can make from this GAME.

People who bitch all the time about others are just lazy and not worth listening too nor talking to. So now I have to ask myself why am I talking here? I hope it is to the ones that I have met that don't bitch and pitch in and meet me with a smiling face and offer me a kind word and don't complain about my mismatched gear and show kindness to me and my wife. These are the ones I hope I am talking to because I am old enough to know the complainers don't listen to anything kind people offer them. They are too busy thinking about how they have been short changed in life and don't realize the only short changing done is by themselves to themselves. You get what you sow!!!!!
I have a great time, my wife has a great time and it is because this is a great sport. Not the cheapest and not the easiest but certainly one of the greatest. I have had the pleasure of shooting with some of the best shooters in the sport and even some of the Wild Bunch and everyone of these people is a keeper. More than I can say about some of the complainers in this game.
So thanks to the people that keep this game moving forward and to everyone of you that works hard at every match you can get to.

Posted by zip wyatt, SASS #28494 (Member # 2287) on March 24, 2004 11:11 AMMarch 24, 2004 11:11 AM:

Bisley Joe,

It is clear you have strong feelings on the subject and that, in your own way, you're concerned about the future of SASS. However, I think if you read the preceding posts, you'll get a feel for how most folks feel about this subject. Personally, IMHO, there will always be folks that will strive to be the best at what they do. Some do it by practizing till it hurts, some others might bend the rules some. Either way, as many of the above pards said, I don't care. As long as I can shoot and dress up and compete against myself, I'm happy. I could really give a hoot what Evil Roy is doing because it really doesn't affect me. I hope you're able to feel the same and have fun with the rest of us.

Zip

Posted by Wild Gene Hickup, SASS #35870 (Member # 5615) on March 24, 2004 12:01 PMMarch 24, 2004 12:01 PM:

quote:

NOT Originally posted by Three Legged Dog:
Blah blah....blah, blah blah....blah, blah

Let me guess, where you shoot, only the good shooters don't cary their own weight. Wow, I bet you're a fun bunch to shoot with.

BJ, the other day, the Judge was on Shooting Gallery. He told the host something like "we started this as a way to shoot IPSIC matches with our cowboy guns". Sounds pretty clear to me. [That was Wednesday, March 10, 2004, at ten a'clock PM, PST, on The Outdoor Channel].

Buck, You said

quote:

Gold Canyon Kid -- maybe you should take a little of your own advice... The Gamers will always look down their greasy, patrician noses at those who play "The Game" the old-timey way, and whine about the folks who criticize their gamery. Always been that way; prob'ly always will, but that don't make it right. There are bullies, manipulators, and pompous @$$es in this game, just like any other, and that don't make it right either.

Well granted I don't know you and have never met you in person, but in this instance, you sure come off as being a crotchety old jerk, IMHO.

Well, been nice visiting with you!

[ March 24, 2004, 12:04 PM: Message edited by: Wild Gene Hickup, SASS #35870 ]

Posted by Three Legged Dog (Member # 10679) on March 24, 2004 12:14 PMMarch 24, 2004 12:14 PM:

quote:

Originally posted by Wild Gene Hickup, SASS #35870:

quote:

NOT Originally posted by Three Legged Dog:
Blah blah....blah, blah blah....blah, blah

Let me guess, where you shoot, only the good shooters don't cary their own weight. Wow, I bet you're a fun bunch to shoot with.

Must of hit a raw nerve with a few. If you read my post never did I say it was "only the good shooters" that didn't pull their weight. I said you'll never see the guys (at least around here) that put on matches telling someone "if you don't like it leave".

And to be honest you would of won that bet!
TLD

Posted by Irish Red O'Toole, #48939 (Member # 13828) on March 24, 2004 12:15 PMMarch 24, 2004 12:15 PM:

WOW, this is getting more play than I thought it would. Who's in favor of having everyone take a step or two away from their keyboards and breath deeply a few times....

Maybe chanting a bit too....

Seriously, this is the kind of vitriol and spew that causes posts to disappear and threads get locked!!

[ March 24, 2004, 12:20 PM: Message edited by: Irish Red O'Toole, #48939 ]

Posted by B. T. Blade, SASS #35685 (Member # 6648) on March 24, 2004 12:17 PMMarch 24, 2004 12:17 PM:

I have a better idea, Irish - let's start packin' up for the Cajon & Coto shoots this weekend! YeeeeHaaaaw!

Posted by Irish Red O'Toole, #48939 (Member # 13828) on March 24, 2004 12:19 PMMarch 24, 2004 12:19 PM:

As my naval pards might say, "I like the cut o' yer jib." Sure works for me B. T.!!!!!!

Posted by Yakima Kid, SASS #28088L (Member # 2251) on March 24, 2004 01:26 PMMarch 24, 2004 01:26 PM:

Don't you ever get tired of RE-PRINTING the same tired statements over and over again?

At least have the decency to rewrite the thoughts so that people think they are reading something new.

[ March 24, 2004, 01:28 PM: Message edited by: Yakima Kid, SASS #28088L ]

Posted by Colt McAllister (Member # 7587) on March 24, 2004 01:34 PMMarch 24, 2004 01:34 PM:

Once again a cut and run. This happens to every post like this. A member comes on and gives everyone his big oppinions and never responds to all of the post that disagrees with him. Do yourself a favor join NCOWS. Nothing against NCOWs. They do it their way and enjoy it.

Posted by Cuts Crooked, SASS #36914 (Member # 6120) on March 24, 2004 01:35 PMMarch 24, 2004 01:35 PM:

BJ, Ya said wat ya had ta say, 'n others responded wif wat they had to say....looks like you lose. (not really, you only lose if you give up on having a good time and let folks run ya off)

However, let me add the rules have always been there for everyone to see. and I have to ask , Iffin this wasn't yer game, why why did you join the outfit? Link to the rules

Sure you 'cn werk ta git the rules changed to yer way of thinkin' But I'll garantee yer gonna lose agin iffin ya try. Jist count the responses above iffin ya wanna preview of tryin THAT!

Best ya take the Judges advise pard, "Shoot your own game"! Have fun, doin what YOU want to do and don' worry 'bout the other guy. Right now they's sumpthin fer everyone in SASS, iffin yer into authenticity a place has been provided fer ya, iffin yer into ISPC with cowboy guns, we can accomadate ya, If yer a driven competitor they's room fer ya, and iffin yer jist in to having a fun day at the range we got just about any catagory ya ca think up to do it in!

Ease up a might Pard! And, "Shoot your own game"

Posted by Uriah, SASS # 53822 (Member # 16042) on March 24, 2004 02:01 PMMarch 24, 2004 02:01 PM:

Hey Pards,

Tell me, when has that rule in the book ever been applied, the one that says something along the lines "If you have to ask if your modification is OK and it gives a competitive advantage, the answer is almost surely NO".

Short stroke kits is gotta be the best example, but I'd put steel or plastic lined holsters there too.

Seems like that rule is a waste of ink.

Uriah

Posted by Yakima Kid, SASS #28088L (Member # 2251) on March 24, 2004 02:10 PMMarch 24, 2004 02:10 PM:

I've seen it applied several times.

Posted by Sixgun Shorty, SASS #35717 (Member # 7467) on March 24, 2004 02:16 PMMarch 24, 2004 02:16 PM:

Internal mods, ie. short stroke kits have always been perfectly legal...

Posted by Ned B. Dixon SASS# 39511 (Member # 7728) on March 24, 2004 02:49 PMMarch 24, 2004 02:49 PM:

This game has to have heroes. I look up to them, hope to be more like them someday.

Not many people would come to matches to see how I shoot!

Posted by Red Goat Jackson, SASS #46691 (Member # 12397) on March 24, 2004 02:56 PMMarch 24, 2004 02:56 PM:

Bass fishin'! Yep, it's bass fishin'! Back when I lived in the land of largemouth bass (I'm a converted trout bum now) I was a member of the Bass Anglers Sportsman Society. I never really entertained thoughts of bein' a serious competitor but I sure enjoyed the exploits of Dance, Martin, Parker, Clunn, et al.

You'd watch these fellas scream across the water with 200 horses of Evinrude behind 'em, hit their first scouted-in-advance fishin' hole, and pick up one of a dozen rods. The pace was fast and furious. Sometimes I wondered why the water didn't foam from all that castin' and reelin'. It sure didn't much resemble the way I and my buddies fished. Sure, I'd enter the occasional local tournament but that pace was still far more laid back. Mostly, I'd just fish for my own enjoymnet. Still it was fun to watch (when I wasn't fishin') cuz they were heroes of the sport, after a fashion

I watched the equipment race, too. High-modulus linear graphite rods, magnetically controlled baitcasting reels with LCD readouts, electronic fishfinders that'd show the size of the fish...and all getting more expensive every year. That was alright with me. I had a couple of good rods and reels, a john boat that didn't leak (much), and a well-stocked tackle box.

I wasn't winnin' any big cash prizes but I was fishin', often with a good friend, and that was the important thing.

Posted by Jailbird ---Finally Joined--#48,305 (Member # 4430) on March 24, 2004 02:58 PMMarch 24, 2004 02:58 PM:

Bisley Joe,
On a few,VERY FEW,of your points - I agree with. However - I disagree with about 95% of what you stated.
As far as 1 hand or two handed --- I shoot Gunfighter -- which means I do use both hands at once - unless whoever made the stage Gunfighter Unfriendly. When I am forced to shoot "Double Duelist" I DO NOT WHINE -- I shoot it as such.
I do not care if you use 1 hand,2 hands or Gunfighter. Why are you so insistent that we all shoot "just like you" ??

I DO WISH PEOPLE WOULD GET OFF THE "IPSC SUCKS B.S." The finest people shoot IPSC,IDPA,bullseye, ETC ETC -- we are ALL SHOOTERS
I have shot Gunfighter since my 3rd match and over 4 years, I have won more then my share of Fame and Fortune. I have never seen my name in the C.C. as a winner in a Major Match -- However,last month,I did see my name in print in the C.C. ---- it was from a new shooter who wrote in to say Thank You Jailbird for all your help in getting me and my children thru our first match etc.
That one letter made me as proud as if I won Gunfighter at End of Trail

That is why I LOVE this game -- everyone will help ANYONE -- from the top shooters to the greenest newby.

You have the God given right to say what you think --- when you say it in public,it gives the rest of us the right to say what we think.

I like to think you are a good Pard and not the anti-IPSC, 1 hand only , my way or no way type that you appear in print.

Now All You Anti-IPSCers get out from under my last nerve Where would we be without all us retired,worn out,can't run anymore IPSCers

I now pass the soapbox -- Jailbird

Posted by Lucky Deuce 1951, SASS #35350 (Member # 10638) on March 24, 2004 03:13 PMMarch 24, 2004 03:13 PM:

I agree with you 100 percent...

However, might as well give it up... Kind of like trying to convince a mule to do something it already has deceided it doesn't want to do.... No matter how much you try, people are set in thier ways and don't want to be confused with facts or change the way they have done things.

Every so often I forget how people are and either bring up or join in the discussion (I say discussion but it usually turns into a fight) for more authenticity and suddenly come to my senses when I realize the futility of trying to change anyones mind. I figure those of us who want authenticity can do our thing and everybody else can be as unathentic as they want to... Its too bad NCOWS isn't a larger organization with more members but it isn't so we have to just bite the bullet and get on with life and put up with the nonsense and ignorance and shoot and dress the way we think is appropriate...

Posted by Evil Roy (Member # 7779) on March 24, 2004 03:24 PMMarch 24, 2004 03:24 PM:

This for all you dirtbags and morons Bisley Joe is talking about who have learned all those loopholes to weasel through at my school. Loopholes like sight alignment, equipment, eye and ear protcection, shooting stages, gun handling, safety, PLAYING WITHIN THE RULES, and all that other weasel stuff. Bisley Joe when you decide to trash and insult someone do me a favor. Have the decency to use their name, not a "top shooter who puts their name on guns and has schools"(wonder who he is refering to) and know what you are talking about. Get a life.

Posted by Sheriff Kickback (Member # 13804) on March 24, 2004 03:27 PMMarch 24, 2004 03:27 PM:

BJ:
First off, the Cowboy Chronicle should get whatever they paid you back.

Get a life B^@&#*$J. There was no competition that resembled cowboy action shooting back then. This is 2004.

I personally like all the pards you negatively insinuated about in a cowardly way.

Take up another profession. You're out of your league.
The Sheriff

Posted by Doc Shapiro (Member # 4158) on March 24, 2004 03:29 PMMarch 24, 2004 03:29 PM:

LD, you said above

quote:

I figure those of us who want authenticity can do our thing and everybody else can be as unathentic as they want to

That's perfect, and the truth.

*Back to general comments*

CAS from the SASS point of view (as I understand it) is that it was never meant to be an authentic period correct game. It is/was supposed to be a fun shooting sport with an old west "flavor" and shooting similar guns. I've even heard at least one of the founders say that they wanted to shoot IPSC type stuff with cowboy guns. Not try to recreate a period of history.

Now it's possible that I have that wrong (or some of it), and if so someone will correct me. But I don't think I do.

The problem is with the basic premise (which I'll pull from the title of the original post): Why anachronistic tactics in a period Game?

This isn't a period game, never was meant to be.

Doc

[ March 24, 2004, 03:30 PM: Message edited by: Doc Shapiro ]

Posted by Odessa Straight (Member # 12314) on March 24, 2004 03:34 PMMarch 24, 2004 03:34 PM:

For what it's worth... Good shot, Evil Roy. Reckon Bisley Joe more than had that comin'. We all know what's what. You do more for the sport than most.

Posted by Dakota Clay (Member # 14071) on March 24, 2004 04:22 PMMarch 24, 2004 04:22 PM:

No offense pard, I really do respect people that come out and shoot just for the fun, but you said it yourself, SASS is a sport, it's a competition, if you don't like the things others do, either get rules passed stoppin what they're doin, er quit yer bitchin an have fun shootin, otherwise, git off the range...If you're out just for the recreation of it an don't like what SASS has became, go to the range by yerself an shoot when us DGB's ain't around.

Posted by Silver Sam, SASS #34718L (Member # 4948) on March 24, 2004 04:32 PMMarch 24, 2004 04:32 PM:

Way Ta Go Evil Roy

Posted by Sixgun Shorty, SASS #35717 (Member # 7467) on March 24, 2004 04:34 PMMarch 24, 2004 04:34 PM:

Maybe your best shot ever, ER!

Posted by cas6969 (Member # 2299) on March 24, 2004 05:15 PMMarch 24, 2004 05:15 PM:

I LOVE reading the replies to posts like this. You guys always go out of your way to prove their point, and point out the worst aspects of the sport and in people.

Posted by Hondo O Hondo (Member # 11425) on March 24, 2004 05:57 PMMarch 24, 2004 05:57 PM:

cas6969, (recently married ?) - all in the SOG

Not sure to whom you are speaking, to BJ and his few fans or to the rest of the posts. BJ does not understand this sport and his ideas should not be allowed to stand, unanswered. If that is the "worst", you have lived a sheltered life, at best.

The truth is never bad. We can all disagree, at times, but logic should control the argument, for opinions are of no real use or value in a formal format.

-

Since BJ has hunkered down, this post is smelling more than ever.

Posted by Shoshone Slim, SASS #31347 (Member # 12478) on March 24, 2004 06:04 PMMarch 24, 2004 06:04 PM:

Evil Roy, I'm not try'in to weasel any free info from ya but you mention sights. What are they and do my guns have 'em?

Posted by Shoshone Slim, SASS #31347 (Member # 12478) on March 24, 2004 06:07 PMMarch 24, 2004 06:07 PM:

cas6969, glad we didn't disappoint you.

Posted by Gold Canyon Kid #43974 (Member # 11280) on March 24, 2004 06:09 PMMarch 24, 2004 06:09 PM:

This post is an excellent example of why the Cowboy Chronicle has become an embarassment to our sport-at least the front half of the monthly newsmagazine. The editorials, letters to the editor don't tell a monthly positive story for our sport. There are clear examples that are positive however and I appaud those authors. I used to give my old copies of the CC to prospective new shooters but no longer do so. Last time I did it the prospective shooter brought it back and thanked me for saving him all the pain of belonging to another group that bitched all the time. Apparently whomever selects the content for the editorials and letters to the editor must not want our sport to continue healthy. Please someone balance off the negative articles each month with some positive letters and editorial articles.

Posted by Colt McAllister (Member # 7587) on March 24, 2004 06:19 PMMarch 24, 2004 06:19 PM:

Exelent point Gold Canyon Kid! I know just what you mean.

Posted by Uriah, SASS # 53822 (Member # 16042) on March 24, 2004 06:31 PMMarch 24, 2004 06:31 PM:

Sixgun Shorty,

I seem to have missed that in the rules that short stroke kits has always been legal. You saying a short lever throw can't be measured or seen?

We'll heck, if it only has to look original on the gun rack, what if some genius builds some self loader out of a Colt Lightning via internal mods? Legal?

Now I'm picking on one of the few cases where I think the line really got crossed, with short strokers - and desire to see if even a few of the anything goes folks would agree (guess I answered my own wonderment there).

Seems I did read about page 4 in the rules where they wanted a sport that would not be given over to gadgetry. And then they go into the spiel about Spirit of the Game - giving a definition of not trying to create an advantage just cause rules aren't forbidding something.

Sorry folks, this ain't word for word, but that's what the book says. And I think it can cut both ways. If short strokes aren't specifically ruled in, they can get tossed out at any shoot, whenever the judges feel like it. Man, would that cause some need for crackers and cheese with the whine.

Uriah

Posted by Sixgun Shorty, SASS #35717 (Member # 7467) on March 24, 2004 06:55 PMMarch 24, 2004 06:55 PM:

Uriah..
You are misintepreting the rules...a short stroke kit as you call it, is an internal modification...internal mods are perfectly legal;no, the rule book doesn't specifically say short stroking is a legal mod, but as an internal mod it falls within the letter of the rules..
Cole Younger pointed out recently ,however, that at EOT this year, if a lever will not stay open or if it looks obviously bent to enhance the short stroke feature, it would be ruled an external mod...however, correct short stroking is an internal modification that is unnoticeable externally(generally speaking)..a difference of less than an inch or so in lever throw when the lever is open is unnoticeable without measuring, plus most lever rifles have a variation in the throw of the lever wihtout any internal modification anyway(not only among the same brand, ie., Ubertis, but between say a Marlin and a Winchester 94, as an example).You would be hard pressed to find a top shooter(which i am most assuredly NOT!) or many serious SASS shooters that have not had short stroking done on their actions.In other words, short stroking is a legal modification endorsed by the premier shooters in this sport..if i am wrong in this assessment, i am sure someone will be quick to jump all over me and correct me..I am not a gunsmith by any stretch, but i do shoot a correctly short stroked 66 Yellowboy...i find the short stroking gives me NO advantage time wise as an average shooter, but it does somewhat ease levering action for me due to advanced degenerative arthritis by reducing
the mechanics necessary to lever the rifle.Point is, unless you are in the super stratum of the 'top guns' short stroking isn't going to materially improve your times anyway, in my opinion..regardless of mods, only practice, talent and dedication will enable you to take advantage of short stroking or any other internal mechanical improvemenet..
These observations are my own logically deduced
conclusions as I am not an expert in any sense of the word, and will not be ofended if my conclusions are in some way flawed.In fact, I would welcome correction.
I would also postulate, that ANY top SASS shooter could easily whip the 98% of us SASS shooters that are average, recreational shooters, with any totally stock lever gun regardless of what mods the rest of us have had done to our guns..much like Andre Agasse could beat 98% of all recreational tennis players with a 1920's wooden racket.

[ March 24, 2004, 07:57 PM: Message edited by: Sixgun Shorty, SASS #35717 ]

Posted by Wes Durn SASS#18998 (Member # 11766) on March 24, 2004 06:58 PMMarch 24, 2004 06:58 PM:

"Authenticity?" You want true authenticity - some of you may be surprised to find that a lot of the clothing, etc. we use in CAS falls pretty far short of truly accurate, historical garments, leathers, footwear, etc. Yes, most of it very much RESEMBLES the originals in some or many ways. But truly accurate? Rarely.(And I'm not refering to the B-movie stuff either).
CAS would be one gigantic anachronism if historical accuracy were what the game was about. But its not - and that's the key. You can deny it, give the flat-earth society arguments, etc. all you want. It is a fantasy game to the vast majority who participate TODAY, and NONE of us should be insisting that ours is the only proper way.
CAS has rules that state what is okay and what is not...that's all we need to go by.

Posted by Uriah, SASS # 53822 (Member # 16042) on March 24, 2004 07:16 PMMarch 24, 2004 07:16 PM:

Sixgun Shorty,

I can appreciate your fair and measured opinion and we'll see what others might say on short strokes.

Myself, if I had a faster lever gun I'd just be complaining MORE about not being able to see through the BP smoke.

Seriously, I guess I have a character flaw, in that I try to win even though I choose to use inferior equipment and methods(Remington and Tasco vs Anshutz and Leupold, Low gun Clays shooting vs pre mounting the gun, Duelist vs Two hand, and little practice vs 10s of thousands of practice rounds). In this speed game of CAS I don't even come close, but I have a few trophies and awards that show skill and determination do work for other shooting games - maybe not first place, but dog gone close. Being an underdog, or not even showing up on the radar, and giving the best technology a run for their money is what trips my trigger. It just won't happen much in this game.

Uriah

Posted by Sixgun Shorty, SASS #35717 (Member # 7467) on March 24, 2004 07:22 PMMarch 24, 2004 07:22 PM:

Well, Uriah, I'm sorta of the same ilk as you...
I shoot max powered 45 loads duelist, try to do my best, sometimes even succeed...I admire the dedication of the Top Guns and enjoy watching them shoot...at 57, arthritic and suffering from several orthopedic surgeries and herniated discs, I take advantage of the mechanical advantages to ease the 'pain' of repetitive shooting....
In every competitive sport, regardless of the nature of that sport, competitiors always have and always will try to gain an 'edge'(Remember when carbon shafted and titanium golf clubs first showed up in Golf?..same thing.wasn't illegal, but gave a hell of a compettiive advantage)..nature of the beast..as long as it falls within the fabric of the rules, why the hell not?You can beat this issue to death and it won't make a shred of difference.
By the way, I genuinely wish you every success in your shooting endeavors..mainly, have fun and don't sweat those things that sweating won't change!

[ March 24, 2004, 07:27 PM: Message edited by: Sixgun Shorty, SASS #35717 ]

Posted by Yakima Kid, SASS #28088L (Member # 2251) on March 24, 2004 07:32 PMMarch 24, 2004 07:32 PM:

Uriah,

Pard, INTERNAL MODS have always been legal. I don't care for shortstroking(I own both a 73 and a 66, neither of which are shortstroked or ever will be), but that does NOT mean it is in any way illegal. Just like changing springs, replacing springs, and modifying action parts are legal mods.

And now we see why folks HATE to see this stupid discussion come up every other day. Because everyone jumps up on their high horse and starts badmouthing others for the way they choose to shoot or the equipment they choose to use.

As an example, I LOVE custom leather and unique guns. I'm willing to bet that I spend TEN TIMES what the average shooter spends on leather and guns. Why? Because I LOVE the stuff. Do I NNED the stuff? Hell no. Will it help me win? Hell no. But, it's what I choose.

Pard, shoot what and how you like within the rules, but leave others to do the same.

Posted by SGT. QUINCANNON, SASS #32999 (Member # 4085) on March 24, 2004 07:37 PMMarch 24, 2004 07:37 PM:

I have a confession to make... I am not a very good shooter. I rarely clean a stage- in fact, I've never shot a clean match. My weak eyes make it fairly hard for me to aquire a consistant sight picture (that's my story and I'm sticking to it!!! ). My interest in SASS is certainly NOT dependent on winning, or even finishing in the top half. If my picture ever shows up in the Cowboy Chronicle, it will probably be in the obituary section. I like this activity because it allows me to shoot the guns of my childhood heroes, and to associate with like-minded people who share an interest in the Old West and the weaponry and clothing thereof. The ins and outs of who is the top shooter, what mods are legal, so-called "mouse phart loads, et cetera, are not even on my radar screen. While 90% or more of SASS shooters are better than me at ringing the steel, I doubt if many have more fun than I. 'Nuff said.

Posted by Uriah, SASS # 53822 (Member # 16042) on March 24, 2004 07:53 PMMarch 24, 2004 07:53 PM:

Kid,

I think I go pretty far outa my way to not bad mouth anyone. Why do folks automatically equate questioning rules and interpretations with jumping on top shooters? Those issues have nothing to do with top shooters.

Maybe you're talking about the overall discussion and I get tagged for a portion I didn't say.

Ease up pard, it's just my questions and opinion, I ain't setting policy, just asking about it.

Uriah

Posted by Uriah, SASS # 53822 (Member # 16042) on March 24, 2004 08:01 PMMarch 24, 2004 08:01 PM:

Sixgun Shorty,

Thanks pard. Best of luck to you this season also. It's my first year of shooting as a member and am looking forward to getting to more shoots.

But, maybe I should swear off these type threads and stick to helping guys with their buff guns.

Uriah

Posted by Bison Bud (Member # 7838) on March 24, 2004 08:15 PMMarch 24, 2004 08:15 PM:

Wow! I nearly decided to stay off of this thread, but I would like to make one important point! At least for me, the best part about SASS/CAS and the secret to it's success and popularity is that it brings us all together with the common ground of the shooting itself. All the different SASS catagories allow us all to make our own choices and participate at whatever level we feel comfortable. Therefore, allowing us all to shoot the same match regardless of the choices we make. I see that as a really good thing and frankly, find it a bit disturbing that so many don't seem to see this as a positive virtue of the game. All in all, it still appears to me that the actual rub here is that some of those who choose to participate in the slower catagories can't seem to get past the fact that they probably will never be the overall winner. I think maybe Lone Yankee said it best on another similar thread where he stated that he does not feel that he was beaten by someone that shot with a two handed hold. I think maybe that's a very healthy approach to the situation. However, we all still shoot the same course of fire, therefore, someone will indeed be the fastest and that will never change! Deal with it as best you can, just get out there and shoot with the rest of us, because that's what our sport is really all about. Good luck and good shooting to all. Adios

Posted by Sixgun Shorty, SASS #35717 (Member # 7467) on March 24, 2004 08:39 PMMarch 24, 2004 08:39 PM:

Maybe we should ALL swear off these kind of threads!!!

Posted by Yakima Kid, SASS #28088L (Member # 2251) on March 24, 2004 09:03 PMMarch 24, 2004 09:03 PM:

Not sure where you read anything in my post that needed easing. I did not attack you in any way, pard. And again I say, now we see why people hate this stupid discussion coming up every other day.

Posted by T. G. Reaper, SASS# 25972 (Member # 1175) on March 24, 2004 09:41 PMMarch 24, 2004 09:41 PM:

Damn, Evil Roy!!! You start posting replies like that people are going to start confusing you with me!

Good for you for calling a spade a spade. You do not deserve that type of personal attack.

Posts like this are the reason why I try to stay off of the Wire. But this guy is just another keyboard commando with an axe to grind and an opinion. He's not worth tarninshing your great reputation.

Of course, if he were talking about ME on the other hand, I'd have to have a little prayer meeting with him to discuss his bad manners.

TGR

Posted by Sodbuster Oliver Bend, SASS #46387 (Member # 17068) on March 24, 2004 09:52 PMMarch 24, 2004 09:52 PM:

Shoshine Slim,
You can take Evil Roy's class and he will show you what they are. I took his class- been looking for my weasel tail lately- and he helped me find out what they were. Thought about grinding them off so I could clear leather faster but wasn't sure if it would be period enough!!! So I have left them on and try to remember what to do with them once in awhile when I shoot.
Just so you know Evil Roy, Wicked Felina and Holey Terror are as good a people as it gets and if any one doesn't believe it then too d--n bad.

Just remember "united we stand divided we fall" sound familiar?

Posted by Aesop Mysleeve SASS #41655 (Member # 13455) on March 25, 2004 04:31 AMMarch 25, 2004 04:31 AM:

Keyboard Commando!

ROFL! Attaboy, T.G.!

Posted by Easy Rider, SASS# 10407 (Member # 6469) on March 25, 2004 04:54 AMMarch 25, 2004 04:54 AM:

Evil Roy,

Great post!

Once again you have cut through the crap and gotten right to the heart of the matter.

Posted by Missouri Dog Soldier, SASS # 56588 (Member # 17221) on March 25, 2004 07:52 AMMarch 25, 2004 07:52 AM:

Gee Whiz, guys. Other than a couple of inaccuracy's (double hold, smokless was around then, etc) I think the guy was just stating what he wished the sport to be. Why all the hardcores took so much offense, I can't say since I'm not one of them. Like I've said before, it's human nature to push the envelope and any sport, no matter how it starts, will go that road. For those that just wish to have some fun, to me, there seems to be plenty of room for that too. In tournament level Paintball, most tournaments have several levels of competition, Pro, Amateur, and Novice. I am in no way suggesting SASS does the same, it's way too confusing and almost impossible to enforce.

However, I do take offense to the "Gamers" that suggest those in the sport strictly for fun, whether they whine about it or not, are simply too lazy to be a competitive shooter, too lazy to practice, etc. When I was a little younger I carried an NRA Expert rating in smallbore. I know what it takes and I know the hours required. Just because I no longer feel the need to feed the competitve side of my male ego does not make me lazy. From a human nature side, I no longer have a need to prove anything to either myself or to others. I am in this just for the simple pleasure of it all. As long as I don't come in last There is always a hint of ego still lurking around.....

Even if I were at a big shoot, I'd enjoy watching the "big boys/gals shoot, it's always amazing to see just what can be accomplished. I've never seen a top SASS shooter in person, but I've watched Riley Gilmore shoot, Bianchi Cup winner at least 2 or 3 times now....if it's as impressive as his shooting, I gotta hand to you.

Gamers - don't be so offensive, gee...
Non-Gamers - no need to gripe, it does no good, accomplishes nothing, so just have your fun, I know I will.

Posted by Def Dan Dreager, SASS #54479 (Member # 16416) on March 25, 2004 08:51 AMMarch 25, 2004 08:51 AM:

Hello, Missouri Dog
In general I don't like to get involved in discussions like this but there are certain kinds of people (not you) who do things that really give me a rash. I don't want to pi$$ on anyone’s shoes but sometimes I just have to express my views. I would think that a person would check the rules and bylaws of any organization they were thinking about joining and that if they thought they couldn't live with those rules they shouldn't join that particular organization. To me it's like the person that builds a house at the end of an airport runway and then whines about the noise and tries the have the airport shutdown. It's the same mentality and I just can't have any respect for people like that.

Someone lamented in one of these recent threads that they were sorry that there weren't more NCOWS clubs so that they could shoot with NCOWS rather than SASS. Another encouraged people to vote with their feet. It would appear that people have already voted and that would explain why SASS has become larger than NCOWS (I have nothing against NCOWS or their members).

I joined SASS to have something fun to do with my son and I personally don't give a rat's a$$ about gamers, warthogs or if a person shoots with one or two hands. At some point I'll try them all. It's the attitude of the person that started these threads that bothers me. I guess I'm fortunate that this attitude doesn't seem to exist in the people I've shot with.

Posted by Missouri Dog Soldier, SASS # 56588 (Member # 17221) on March 25, 2004 09:00 AMMarch 25, 2004 09:00 AM:

Dan....exactly. My eldest son and I have always enjoyed the same sports, we played tourney level Paintball together, I taught him how to shoot skeet, etc. SASS was just another in a long line of things we could do together that we both enjoy and have fun doing together.....granted, he wants to be fast so he can leave me in his dust and I'm fine with that. In fact, I hope he does. I'll be 50 in a couple of weeks or so, it's about time he found something he could beat me at

Posted by Big Spring Kid, Life Member # 32163 (Member # 7285) on March 25, 2004 09:02 AMMarch 25, 2004 09:02 AM:

Funny thing? I tried the rubber soled boots, the light loads, minimal dress, metal lined holsters, name brand action job and my times changed very little. The shooting school helped some but I have come to the conclusion that if I want to get any better I may have to spend long boring hours practicing.

BSK

Posted by Def Dan Dreager, SASS #54479 (Member # 16416) on March 25, 2004 09:31 AMMarch 25, 2004 09:31 AM:

quote:

Originally posted by Missouri Dog Soldier, SASS # 56588:
Dan....exactly. My eldest son and I have always enjoyed the same sports, we played tourney level Paintball together, I taught him how to shoot skeet, etc. SASS was just another in a long line of things we could do together that we both enjoy and have fun doing together.....granted, he wants to be fast so he can leave me in his dust and I'm fine with that. In fact, I hope he does. I'll be 50 in a couple of weeks or so, it's about time he found something he could beat me at

For various reasons I didn't shoot for a number of years and late last summer I decided to start again at my son's (14 yrs old)urging. We started shooting CAS last November. He's already doing better than I am. Age and diabetes has ruined my eyesight, I have trouble focusing on the front sight. I tell him that's the reason he can beat me so he'll feel sorry for me but he'd probably beat me even if I had perfect 20/20. I'm really proud of him and I'm sure you'll feel the same about your son. Good luck to both of you.

Posted by Missouri Dog Soldier, SASS # 56588 (Member # 17221) on March 25, 2004 10:41 AMMarch 25, 2004 10:41 AM:

Thanks dan, to you also....

One more slight point I'd like to make that may seem obvious to many. To those that feel the SASS is going too IPSC. I look at it this way. How many IPSC shooters have you known that did it just for fun? At least, on my part, none. They all got into it to see how well they could do. I think because of the shear numbers of SASS members, we enjoy the fact that not everyone is in it to be competitive. I'm not sure how many really competitive top shooters there are, someone mentioned 20 to 30....I also imagine that they enjoy the fact that there isn't another 20,000 or so shooters breathing down their shirt collars wanting to beat them, right guy/gals? Lucky for them there are shooters like me.......

So, just as I don't criticize the top players, they should not criticize the lack of competition we give. What should this be....room for one and room for all...yeah, that's the ticket.

Posted by Doc Whip Lash #15561 (Member # 9566) on March 25, 2004 12:51 PMMarch 25, 2004 12:51 PM:

btt

Posted by Odessa Straight (Member # 12314) on March 25, 2004 01:20 PMMarch 25, 2004 01:20 PM:

Well, I don't usually get involved in threads like .... I usually hold my tounge...bite it rather than cast any kinda recrimispursions...fully seein' EVERYBODY's view even the littl' mouse load tinkers..;

.BUT,... TGR, I gotta warn ya, 'ol hoss, that I've got it on good authority that Bisley Joe stands 6'5'' in his sox and weighs in at a lean, mean 290 lbs. He entertains his possee by bendin' horse shoes in his bare hands...bites the heads offa the steel snake targets, too. If ya really do wanna teach him sum manners you'd best bring along your pump gun...stoked with sumthin' mean...like 00, or sumthin'.

Posted by BisleyJoe 29738 (Member # 9905) on March 25, 2004 01:23 PMMarch 25, 2004 01:23 PM:

Posted by Gold Canyon Kid #43974 (Member # 11280) on March 23, 2004 08:23 PMMarch 23, 2004 08:23 PM:

“Why don't you play the game the way you want to play and quit trying to tell the rest of us what to do?”

Dude! You keep reading into and not reading! Come on now!

Posted by RDS95991 (Member # 16691) on March 23, 2004 08:38 PMMarch 23, 2004 08:38 PM:

I am just starting out. I finally got the guns together and now I am working on the rigs and costume. To that end, I have been reading these posts to find out as much as possible.

Many times I am confused about nature of this sport. Authenticity and fun are mentioned, but then you read about modifications and light loads which would not have been available or even desirable.

I find it humorous that you can trick out a gun with space age technology, but not have soles on your boots that could save you a nasty slip and perhaps dangerous fall.

Oh well, maybe one day I will understand it all. “

Good observations. Don’t ever be hesitant to say your point because you’re new. If folks agree or disagree, let them do it like gentlemen or let ‘em go to hades.
El Paso Saddlery has got good rigs at good prices, and you can try Wild West Mercantile in Arizona. They’ve got great clothes. I get a lot of my stuff from them, and some from trips to Tombstone and stuff. If you need any help just email me and I’ll help as much as I can.
Bisley Joe

Posted by Lukas Haas SASS # 39575 (Member # 4993) on March 23, 2004 08:46 PMMarch 23, 2004 08:46 PM:

“Methinks I hear the beating of a very dead horse again.”

Nay! (not neigh) ‘tis a horse alive and well, but oft bound and hindered by the wretchedness of naives and scoundrels!

Posted by Joehawk (Member # 13250) on March 23, 2004 09:09 PMMarch 23, 2004 09:09 PM:

I would like to answer some questions and reply to some statements (from my point of view) posed in the March Chronicle article titled “What’s The Point of SASS/Cowboy Action Shooting?”

1. “The first question is asked in the title of the article, “What’s The Point of SASS/Cowboy Action Shooting?” The point of SASS is cowboy action shooting is shooting. SASS stands for Single Action Shooting Society. There are many fascinating and fun aspects to this game but it is primarily it is a shooting sport/game. You can tell its a game because they keep score. I would dare say if SASS were to became a nonshooting Western dress up social club there would be allot less members.”

2. “Fun for me is the shooting competition, seeing if I can improve my shooting, practicing, the fellowship of my fellow shooters, talking about guns, equipment, reloading, designing courses of fire and building props for the stages.”

3. “Question, “Isn’t the Spirit of the Game to relive the Western era?” The answer is no. The Spirit of the Game is a rule found in the SASS Shooters Handbook and nowhere does it mention anything about reliving the Western era. Its about good sportsmanship.”

The Spirit of the Game involves the spirit of doing this at least in the theme of Cowboy. Speaking of sportsmanship, modern tactics should not dominate a period sport.
4. In “The Magnificent Seven“, you will see Steve McQueen on three different occasions using his left hand to support his wrist of his shooting hand and James Coburn makes a shot using both hands wrapped around the pistol grip, using the two hand pistol hold seen at SASS Matches. Two hands also were often used in the movies also to fan a pistol. Fanning a pistol is not allowed in SASS competition for obvious reasons. “

All examples of accuracy shooting, which I mentioned as valid. Fanning is not allowed because of safety. Double actions are not allowed at all, you can only load two rounds in a 97, you’ve got to wear a period hat…
5. “I for one am not trying to recreate the era and its styles.”

6. “…we are already, in part, the IPSC crowd. I know of at least 30 SASS shooters, including myself, that are current or former IPSC shooters. IPSC shooters play a different game with a different set rules and are some of the finest people I know. If the question is referring to the equipment race in IPSC, which is within the IPSC rules, I have bad news, the equipment race is already here in SASS. If the question is about gaming the courses of fire to gain a advantage, that is also for the most part within the IPSC rules, but not within the Spirit of the Game in SASS.”

You’ve basically just proved my point. Competing against period style shooters using modern tactics is indeed gaming the courses of fire to gain advantage. You’re right, it’s not within the Spirit of the Game! So why do we allow it?
7. “I for one will do in in a manner consistent with safety and the rules.”

Please, Just don’t be a gamer.

“SASS is sometimes referred to as a fantasy sport. Well everyone can have their fantasy and I’ll have mine.”

Ah, except for the fantasy of winning at a period game using period tactics. Overall prevents that, as it dominates the sport.

Posted by Buck Elliott, SASS #6177 (Member # 5261) on March 23, 2004 09:12 PMMarch 23, 2004 09:12 PM:
Gold Canyon Kid -- maybe you should take a little of your own advice... The Gamers will always look down their greasy, patrician noses at those who play "The Game" the old-timey way, and whine about the folks who criticize their gamery. Always been that way; prob'ly always will, but that don't make it right. There are bullies, manipulators, and pompous @$es in this game, just like any other, and that don't make it right either.

Regards,

Buck -- who can play it either way, but prefers the 'period' aspect of the game.

Excellently put sir! Isn’t it amazing how gamers use all the loopholes and weasel their way around touting “If the rules don’t mention it it’s ok.”, dominating a period game with modern tactics, and then have the audacity to tell others to “just have fun” or to make their own game?

Posted by Cimarron Red, SASS 18460 (Member # 338) on March 23, 2004 09:22 PMMarch 23, 2004 09:22 PM:

Joe,

“It's a simple and very valid point you make, and of course one with which I agree. The evidence in your other post speaks for itself, and speaks volumes. Those who reject your evidence and your protestations do so out of the fear that you will convince those who can change the game to comply with its true spirit.”

“Also I find it interesting, but not surprising, that those who vehemently disagree with you should stoop to ad hominem attacks. Sacred cows (cowboys) can stand only so much kicking. I say, 'kick away', but don't try to do it simultaneously with both feet.”

Thank you Cimarron Red. The first time I got flamed, some while back, I was honestly surprised. Now I see that it’s a group of brats who are the actual malcontents and whiners. SASS is a great sport, with a lot of really good people, and I feel strongly that it is necessary to preserve it. Thanks again for your fine words.

Posted by Wild Earp #7904L (Member # 4755) on March 23, 2004 09:26 PMMarch 23, 2004 09:26 PM:

“I have finally reached a point where I don't much care what other pards wear or carry. I am there for the fun. And the fun begins after the shooting stops. Pards want to make money at this, go for it! Who really cares. Leave the attitudes at home. It is kinda like carrying a bone stock Glock to a highly regimented IPSC competition.”

That’s fine, but we have to care about the game we play or it will be lost. A bone stock anything in IPSC is the opposite of gamers in SASS. You’d be going in without loophole jumping.
Posted by Rancid Roy (Member # 8296) on March 23, 2004 09:31 PMMarch 23, 2004 09:31 PM:

“Not to be snooty but now you know how the "Founding Fathers" felt/feel. They wrote the Constitution and since that time it has been squeezed, poked, played, and prodded until it is no longer the document it was supposed to be. This because the judges and attorneys have "interpreted" it beyond its meaning.”

Same with the SASS rules. They are being taken advantage of by folks with an interest in winning over preserving The Spirit of the Game.
“ Competitors can come and be their best. Historians can come and relive the past. Movie fans can come and partake in a small part of the movie roles they enjoy watching. Friendly folks can come and hang out and socialize.”

But only those who shoot with modern tactics have a chance at winning Overall/EOT and they are dominating a period sport while the period shooters are told to be happy just to be there. You can be a plainsman today, an Indian tomorrow, and a gunman on Saturday, but in the end you’ll have to shoot with modern tactics in a period game to have a major win. The point is that Overall is the problem, not eliminating anyone or any style. Modern tactics should not dominate a period game.
Posted by Silver Sam, SASS #34718L (Member # 4948) on March 23, 2004 09:32 PMMarch 23, 2004 09:32 PM:

“Its Very Simple Joe... I find it hard to believe that you Missed it... They Didn't have Timers in the Old West…. Quit Worrying about what the Other Feller is doing and Have Fun... However You want to! The Greatest aspect of Our Sport is there's Plenty of Room for Everyone...”

Come on now, for goodness sake! The point is that modern tactics are dominating a period sport. They didn’t have little steel targets either. Does that mean we should bring in 1911s and M60 Machine Guns? There’s plenty of room for everyone? I haven’t seen that at top matches where Overall turns the whole thing into IPSC and the period shooters are pushed aside.

Posted by Texican Scout (Member # 16120) on March 23, 2004 09:42 PMMarch 23, 2004 09:42 PM:

“Joe, you are entitled to your opinion. I do believe your use of honor and ethics will generate a great deal of resentment as it loads your argument with a superior tone, which it does not deserve. This piece is just your opinion.”

“This post will likely become a flamefest and you will feel you have not been heard. If so, I suggest you try and rephrase your statement without using a broadside that implies insult.”

I respect your point of view sir, but my use of honor and ethics was, and is, valid. I stick by what I said 100%. This piece is just my opinion, as is any other. There are some that may have misread my intention in using honor and ethics, but there are also some who are offended because it puts to light their own failure to do what deep down they know is right. If this post becomes a flamefest it is not of my doing. It’s happened before because of little men who can’t handle another’s opinion. These subjects are like rented debate rooms with the topic clearly presented at the door. A fellow has no obligation to enter. He has the right to argue against the topic ‘till he’s blue in the face, but he should have the common decency and respect to leave insults out of it, and the respect to accept when he cant change the author’s mind.

I will reiterate that what is happening in SASS is about honor and about ethics. I am no more or no less than any man here, and I would consider you all friends. But this is a valid issue, and I am tired (as are others) of hearing the loophole jumpers and gamers act like this is their sport. If there truly is room for everyone, then let’s stop the modern tactics from dominating this period game.
Bisley Joe
29738

Posted by Fargo Kid SASS # 27160 LIFE (Member # 11358) on March 23, 2004 09:43 PMMarch 23, 2004 09:43 PM:

“Read what Wogg said !”
Try telling me something yourself instead of hanging off of someone else’s’ comments. While I respect what you are trying to say, it IS unethical to come into a period game and use modern tactics to dominate the wins. Further, to insist on keeping the status quo so you can keep winning, and telling the period shooters to “just be happy” is downright sick, and yes, dishonorable. I see that lots of the “top” shooters are the ones whining every time their cleverly maintained clique is threatened. Like brats they throw a tantrum and project their own guilt with asinine accusations when someone protests. Historical accuracy can also be very well documented. Though we are not a reenactment, we are COWBOY ACTION SHOOTING, not Action Shooting Cowboy Style.

Posted by Sodbuster Oliver Bend, SASS #46387 (Member # 17068) on March 23, 2004 10:15 PMMarch 23, 2004 10:15 PM:

“You obviously have no idea how SASS was started. The main things was to dress up like your favorite western movie and have a good time shooting. Now if you want to be true to this shoot blanks like they do in the movies! “

Now it’s becoming an IPSC match with a bunch of dressed up people being told to just be happy they’re even there! Talk about elitism! Shoot blanks? Hunh?
I’m sure lots of top shooters are good people and all that. But that still does not solve the problem that modern techniques are dominating a period sport! Practice is part of it etc. etc. etc. But you still have modern techniques dominating a period sport! And no amount of practice will allow a period shooter to win overall.

Posted by Nubbins Colt #7802 (Member # 938) on March 23, 2004 10:36 PMMarch 23, 2004 10:36 PM:

“Bisley Joe, I will not repeat everything I said in the other thread. You are bent way too tightly around the axle on this. I won't even try to be nice and patronize you a little. You're boring, your opinions are not facts, your ranting is annoying, and you don't get it. If you can't get over it can you at least be quiet? Nobody cares, pardner - we love Lead Dispencer, we love Handlebar Doc, we love Holy Terror, and we do not care if they shoot two handed, if they have short stroked rifles, use smokeless powder, and slip hammer all the way. This is a GIANT SOCIAL EVENT, a LOVE FEST, with a little angst thrown in to keep things on edge. You're way out of line.”

Thanks for your honesty. It seems like it’s you who can’t get over a dissenting opinion aye? Pard, if I’m boring don’t listen, if you choose to ignore facts (which are separate from my opinions) then talk to yourself, if I’m annoying go somewhere else, and if you don’t care then take a hike. I neither want nor need you to be nice. Am I out of line? Really? Well, I’ll wait for your zeal and belief in goodness to chastise a couple of folks who’ve used profanity here and insulted others. But I’d die of old age first. You are simply a pack follower trying to look like you care. Your statements regarding not caring about short stoke kits, slip thumbing etc. proves you care more about the “in” crowd than anything else. I leave you then to your “LOVE FEST” with your favorite dudes.

Posted by Knuckles Bandera #43963 (Member # 10653) on March 24, 2004 03:01 AMMarch 24, 2004 03:01 AM:

“I see your point BisleyJoe. I've often wondered that myself. I actually like to "reenaact" a little when I'm shooting a stage and really pretend that I'm attempting to re-live whatever the scenario really is. I notice many other folks just rush through the stage for the best time; hec, that's the game, the fastest time wins. But I want a little more. It doesn't bother me to see others play the way they want to play...I guess that's why that have different catagories.”

I agree. The only problem is Overall, which is allowing modern tactics to dominate a period game. I understand that not everyone will have the same view of the period thought, but I can’t see how anyone can come to a period game using modern tactics and, with a straight face, tell the period people to shoot their way if they want to win, or just be happy being there.

BisleyJoe, I wanted to email you privately, but your profile does't have your email.

Please email me...thanks pard!

Posted by Grampaw Willie, SASS No.26996 (Member # 7333) on March 24, 2004 03:05 AMMarch 24, 2004 03:05 AM:

“Because it's a game and not a re-enactment. In SASS you can carry the authenticity to whatever level you prefer. We don't got no authenticity police (we got some wanna-bees but we generally give them the business and they find a rock to hide under ). We like it that way. Jeans, work boots, flannel shirt and stuff something on yer head for a hat, show up and shoot!! Dress to the 9s and play a character!! "It's all good"!! Let's keep it that way !! “

Posted by Train Robber 13659 (Member # 11896) on March 24, 2004 03:29 AMMarch 24, 2004 03:29 AM:
I suggest you form a local club and put on matches as you see fit. I would enjoy such a match. I believe NCOWS is the way for you to go. By the way......do you shoot
period firearms? Or...... anachronistic copies of them?”

AH, again with the “go make your own game” mentality. One thing: Modern tactics should not dominate a period sport.

Posted by Gold Canyon Kid #43974 (Member # 11280) on March 24, 2004 03:36 AMMarch 24, 2004 03:36 AM:

“Why do you consider it necessary to call other shooters names? Just because you disagree with how others play the game within the rules, is no reason to trash other shooters. I think you need to reread what I said, i.e. play the game how you enjoy it and let others do the same.”

Hey Gold Canyon Kid, I’m lookin for your post telling the guy off who was insulting and using profanity but I can’t find it. It is there right? You couldn’t be THAT much of a hypocrite! Modern tactics should not dominate a period sport.
Posted by Big Law Dawg 18413 (Member # 9800) on March 24, 2004 03:39 AMMarch 24, 2004 03:39 AM:

“What I see in the CAS press in recent months and years reminds me of IPSC. There are three or four names and faces of CAS shooters that have been elevated to heroic levels. I won't mention names, but you see these same faces and names on every other page when you pick up a CAS magazine or the "Chronicle." That said, the game allows a class for just about everybody's preference, so as long as matches exist, maybe it just doesn't matter. I just enjoy my guns and shoot them the way I want, both at home and at the few matches I attend, one-handed and with Holy Black! / Let others do what they want; it just don't get more "cowboy" than that!”

Pard, I’m all for letting folks do what they want. Problem is, the elitists controlling this period game using modern tactics are the ones saying “do it my way”. If you don’t, you’re supposed to just be happy and bow to them. Modern tactics should not dominate a period sport.
Posted by Stoney Creek SASS4952 (Member # 13446) on March 24, 2004 03:46 AMMarch 24, 2004 03:46 AM:

“In reading this thread I see that Bisely Joe mentions that Doc Whiplash is a very good friend. Isn't Doc the person that stirred up all the ruckas on LD's rolled up sleeves awhile back
Birds of a feather fly together”

Yup, that was Doc, my very good friend. I remember his point being simply that you should dress the part if you’re gonna represent SASS as a champion. I also remember some tail kissers going nuts and saying how they’d throw a drink in his face, or how they’d be happy just to pick up LD’s brass. Yeah, rrrrrrrreal cowboy like!

Posted by Mustang Gregg (Member # 13413) on March 24, 2004 03:49 AMMarch 24, 2004 03:49 AM:

“What guns do you shoot with?”

Mustang Greg, I shoot a pair of Bisley revolvers w/7.5” barrels and in 45 LC from Navy Arms.

Posted by Curly McCrae (Member # 7211) on March 24, 2004 03:55 AMMarch 24, 2004 03:55 AM:

“Why all this conversation over a subject that is much simpler than it might appear to be? If ya don't like the fact that a few shooters are makin some money off endorsements, don't buy the products that they endorse. Don't attend the shooting schools that they hold. You can speak much louder with your wallet than you ever will with a keyboard.”

Quite true, but I was making the point that it’s an overall (no pun intended) attitude that’s polluting the game. We were supposed to be free of endorsements etc. And the thing about shooting schools is that they’re propagating the further perversion of SASS by pushing the gamer/weasel through the loopholes ideology.

Posted by Carolina Lucky SASS#30020 (Member # 12859) on March 24, 2004 04:18 AMMarch 24, 2004 04:18 AM:

“You sure do expend a lot of hot air defending an incorrect premise. One of Hickock's first gunfights is recorded, and states he made his shot two-handed. It is obvious two handed shooting was done. You and Doc sure like to stir the pot.”

Gee! You sure do like to throw in insults and demeaning little comments instead of simply making a simple statement don’t you?
Wild Bill’s shooting of Mr. Tut was described as Hickock “rested gunhand upon left arm to steady it and shot Tut though the heart.” Now it’s obvious that you didn’t actually read what I wrote, since I said that two hands were used for accuracy/distant shots.

Posted by Sixgun Shorty, SASS #35717 (Member # 7467) on March 24, 2004 04:35 AMMarch 24, 2004 04:35 AM:

“Give it up...I appreciate your comments and that you took the time to write the article, but this subject has been beaten to death...Play the game your way within the rules and live and let live...This subject is just plain boring and repetitive to excess.If you're that dissatisfied, find another game..or another subject, please”

Give it up? Why? Because you find it taxing to participate? Come on pard! You know the “live and let live” idea only applies if you bow to the gamer clique, like right now for instance. Play by the rules? Without finding the loopholes and what little advantages I can manipulate? Already do that! But, you see, you can’t really win against gamers that way. Find another game? Why don’t you and your gamer friends “find another game”? Modern tactics should not dominate a period sport.
Posted by Sergeant Smokepole #29248L (Member # 4065) on March 24, 2004 04:35 AMMarch 24, 2004 04:35 AM:

“I shot in the Black Powder classes because that is what I do. Even in Modern Class, I shoot The Holy Black. Do I try to be the top shooter in the match?? NO! Do I try to have the most fun in the match??????? GRIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Error! Unknown switch argument.Error! Unknown switch argument.Error! Unknown switch argument.Error! Unknown switch argument.YUP! I do what I do and don't worry about anything but converting heathens to The Darkside by my Smoke!! BOOM!! GRIN!! and my actions.”

That’s all wonderful, but with all due respect, you’re missing the point: Modern tactics should not dominate a period sport.

Posted by Hondo O Hondo (Member # 11425) on March 24, 2004 04:37 AMMarch 24, 2004 04:37 AM:

“Get a life and do not worry so much about 'how' others live out their fantasies. This carcase truly smells....”

Hey Hondo o Hondo
Thanks for such a friendly, and Cowboy minded, suggestion. I’ll just shoot in SASS and, instead of trying to weasel my way into top wins by perverting a period game with obviously modern tactics, I’ll play at least a little in period fashion. I will get a life and, instead of forgetting about my own ethics and the rights of others in order to win above all else, I’ll compete in this period game using period methods. Oh! Wait! I already do that! Oops, guess it’s you who needs a life. If the carcass smells so bad have the intelligence to go away, or wear deodorant… Modern tactics should not dominate a period sport.

Posted by Pee Wee 15785 (Member # 690) on March 24, 2004 04:46 AMMarch 24, 2004 04:46 AM:

“Have you ever once asked not to be timed? Have you ever once been on a poise that was not timed? If not maybe you are one of the Gamerst. How can a person not dressing and shooting your way take from your fun? It sounds like you can't cut it in the fast lane.”

Your statement makes no sense. Obviously sir, you haven’t the slightest idea of the point here. Read the article a few times, think, pause, think, pause, and then say something we can discuss. PS
Here’s a hint: Modern tactics should not dominate a period sport.
Posted by Shoshone Slim, SASS #31347 (Member # 12478) on March 24, 2004 04:52 AMMarch 24, 2004 04:52 AM:

“Well I came in from cleaning out the kennels and sat down and read this thread. I thought I'd seen all of the dog crap that I was going to hafta look at today. I didn't think that B.J. could top the load that he put out before but I stand corrected. Nubbin's all I can say is AMEN brother!!!!”

Hey there Shoshone, back with the intelligent conversation and the friendly commentary I see. Let’s see, instead of either arguing a valid point or leaving a place you don’t want to be you resort to insults and comments that make you look lower with each word. Good work. Now, let’s try to be civil! Remember what you learned back in grade school: don’t insult others, respect the opinions of others, and act like a person, not a buffoon. Come on, you can do it Shoshone! Use your brain, TRY! Come on, say something worthwhile! I believe in you man! So let’s get back to the issue:

Hey! Where are you Gold Canyon Kid? We need you to stand up against the name calling and the insults! Help us please!

Posted by Buffalo Dick, SASS #12880 (Member # 2465) on March 24, 2004 04:52 AMMarch 24, 2004 04:52 AM:

“As I recall, the last time you started this argument the thread ran to about 200 posts with most pards disagreeing with your factual assumptions about shooting styles and what CAS is all about. Their mostly polite and articulate arguments were ignored by you. To declare that only your vision of the sport is right and that others shooting different categories legally are 'unethical' is pure BS. I'd say Nubbins Colt told it like it is.I respect your vision of the game and would not presume to tell you how you should play-you need to extend others the same courtesy.”

Well, you either have a bad memory or you’re lying through your teeth. What “mostly polite and articulate arguments”? Do you mean the comments to shut up and the name calling, saying my point was worthless, being challenged to a fight? The accusations of things I never said? The harassing and disruption of my post, and even of my post thanking those who both agreed and disagreed like gentlemen? As I remember you didn’t give a damn about any of that, like you don’t now. Your mealy-mouthed concern about civility is as transparent as you are. Come to think of it, I figure you are lying through your teeth.
BUT, as I said before, the point is: Modern tactics should not dominate a period sport.

Posted by Manatee (Member # 14503) on March 24, 2004 05:05 AMMarch 24, 2004 05:05 AM:

“Hey Bisley Joe! Yer pic looked real good in the Chronicle. And Tex deserves and attaboy for printing a letter as potentially controversial as yours. As to the merits of what ya had to say? I don't have an opinion. I'm having way too much fun shootin' in various categories and with various weaponry to worry about what the next puncher is gonna do.”

Manatee! Good day! Thanks for the compliment. It was Doc (Whiplash) who took the picture back at Top Gun about a year ago. Almost made it to the last one but had a last minute bs get in the way. I’m looking forward to shooting up there again .

Posted by Capt. Morgan Rum, SASS #6859 (Member # 14434) on March 24, 2004 05:22 AMMarch 24, 2004 05:22 AM:

“F-A-N-T-A-S-Y”

Yar! Capn’, ye be leavin out ther most imprtant part!
M-O-D-E-R-N T-A-C-T-I-C-S S-H-O-U-L-D-N-T D-O-M-I-N-A-T-E A P-E-R-I-O-D G-A-M-E-!

Posted by Aesop Mysleeve SASS #41655 (Member # 13455) on March 24, 2004 06:20 AMMarch 24, 2004 06:20 AM:

“On his semi-occasional swing through the territory, the deputy for the SFTPOCTDEC tacked up the following broadside on a telegraph pole:

The Society For The Prevention Of Cruelty To Deceased Equine Critters herewith declares that the originator of this thread is in flagrant violation of the relevant ordinances.

Notice is given to kindly cease and desist, lest citation of notice to appear be given.

As to particulars, he said it was bad enough to have this topic posted in the CC, but to dredge it up again on the Wire is in the same league as people who invite all the neighbors over to see slides of their 27-day trip to the tractor factories of the Ukraine.

After posting the notice, the deputy made the observation that in 37 years of reading Car & Driver, he's never seen one letter arguing passionately that the Indy 500 should be raced by making constant right turns instead of left ones. It seemed to him that if driving enthusiasts could get used to accepting a sport for the way it always was, some cowboy shooters ought to get over trying to re-invent it their sport as well.”

Aesop, funny thing happened!

The Territorial Marshal of SCSD (The Society of Common Sense and Decency), while on his daily duties, had the following statement printed and distributed:

The Society of Common Sense and Decency (SCSD) hereby posts the following rules of Common Sense and Decency:

When you enter into discussions with someone, it is common sense and decency to respect that person’s opinion and to offer neither insult nor rudeness if that person’s point of view cannot be changed.

If you are bored, offended, or exhausted by a person’s opinions, especially in a place where you’re not forced to enter, have the common sense to leave.

If you can’t keep your mouth from uttering curse words and insults over a simple debate, go suck on some soap, or get a life.

Entering a game, sport, or pastime, that revolves around celebrating a certain time period, and using loopholes and other unethical weaseling to assure domination of said game, sport, or pastime is a no-no (read dishonorable).

If this game, sport, or pastime does indeed become dominated by modern practices, then it is up to those who are dominating it in such a manner to have the common sense and decency to change it so that those who play in period fashion are respected and not disenfranchised.

Once you find that you are indeed dominating a period game, sport, or pastime with modern tactics it is bad form to accuse those who protest of being “whiners” in order to hide your own fear and failure to do the right thing.

Doing otherwise is the equivalent of backing up into another vehicle and telling the cops that they rear ended you.

The Marshall then observed that in all his life he’d never seen someone trying to use Karate at a Greco-Roman Wrestling competition. He also stated that, based on common sense and decency, modern tactics should not dominate a period sport.

Posted by Harve Curry (Member # 7074) on March 24, 2004 06:37 AMMarch 24, 2004 06:37 AM:
“I see by your outfit that you are an artist, illustrator, cinematographor, writer, and more.
I am sure you are good at it, but pard this is a hornets nest of a topic.”

Yes indeed! And they’re buzzing all around! NUTS!

Posted by Roscoe Coles, SASS #1188 (Member # 9015) on March 24, 2004 08:01 AMMarch 24, 2004 08:01 AM:

“Bisley Joe: Well said. The series of attacks and snivelings which your post has generated pretty much proves your point. I have been in the sport long enough to remember the way it was in the begining and let me tell you it was nothing like it is today. The culture of CAS was totally different back then. People would just not put up with the gamesmanship that is taken for granted today. The sport was started to get away from the IPSC mentality and enjoy shooting again. However, as with everything size and money changed everything. Personally, I have given up talking about the spirit of the game, most modern CAS shooters can't even grasp the concept and as you have seen they tend to turn on you like a pack of dogs. What your fighting in the secret desire that if they only had the right piece of gear, or cut the right corners, these guys could be "winners." What they fail to grasp is that by seeking to win at all costs they cheapen the sport, perpetuate a race to the bottom, and make any victory they may win meaningless. I'm not saying that the "top" shooters are not good shots and that they don't work hard at it, they are and they do. But if you banned all the gammy crap I think they would still be winning the matches. You would think that folks would have realized by now that this sport, like many others, is not about beating the other guy, its about being the best that you can be on any given day. After all, if you are only in it to win, all but one guy at each match are wasting their time. Kepp up the good work and don't let them get you down.”

Hey thanks pard! I totally agree with you! It’s so bizarre: to come into a period game and play it with modern tactics. I can understand some folks having gotten carried away, but I can’t forgive the refusal to acknowledge what’s happening, or their selfishness. Some of these folks talk about “getting along” but we know it only applies as long as you bend to their rules. Top shooters are good because they practice a lot, and as you said, many of them would still be winning if they’d just played it like it should be played. Either way, no worries, there are too many of you real SASS folks out there for me to let a few malcontents get me down!
Posted by Missouri Dog Soldier, SASS # 56588 (Member # 17221) on March 24, 2004 08:17 AMMarch 24, 2004 08:17 AM:

“Ok, I think his point is this. How many avoid IPSC on the grounds that it is nothing but hardcore competitive shooting....Not too many have fun coming in last in that sport. So, if SASS goes the same road, at some point membership may really drop off and/or few will renew after discovering all the clubs care about is competition. It has got to the point now where it cannot turn back, it's human nature and mostly male ego that drives us to be the best we can be. Fine for those that feel "driven" as long as those that feel no such need can still have fun.....Time will tell..... “

That’s certainly part of it. But I’ve seen so many people at matches either not shoot in an overall competition or give up shooting period because they only had a chance shooting like it was IPSC. That particular part, with all the IPSC tactics, gets almost all the coverage and attention, and thus misrepresents our sport. We have to strive to control that male ego to win with the desire to be honorable and to have ethics. It just seems like it shouldn’t need explanation, like people, especially professing the Cowboy Spirit, would police themselves. It’s a little disheartening.

Posted by Evil Roy (Member # 7779) on March 24, 2004 08:19 AMMarch 24, 2004 08:19 AM:
“SASS is for shooting fun. Enjoy it at whatever level and for whatever reason you want. It is a competition as we keep score. Winners and losers. Sorry. Just for the record SASS was not started to do anything but shoot IPSC with cowboy guns. The Judge told me that a long time ago and just saw him again in an interview saying it again. Had nothing to do with true old west or anything else. It has evolved into much more and includes all kinds of things we all enjoy. So for all you folks who are up in arms over the competitive part if you are doing it for any other reason than competition you are ruining it for us "purists" using your logic. I really don't understand why all you folks who are into the "real" old west don't just shoot NCOWS and be happy. By the way the real old west had nothing to do with B westerns as you will find out if you show up at an NCOWS match with that type set up. They are a great bunch and are really into what you want. If you want a great outfit which has room for us all that would be SASS.”

You play this game like a gamer and have the audacity to tell us to go to NCOWS!? I would think that you’d have enough ethics to stand for the right thing, to at least admit that using modern tactics in a period sport, to monopolize on the winnings, is wrong. But now that I’ve read your patronizing opening line it is no surprise at all.

SASS is for shooting fun aye? Room for us all? B Western or A Western or real life Western, nobody ever shot in the IPSC way that you do, and to relish in making this the predominant method in a period game is a travesty. And yes, it is a period game. If it wasn’t we wouldn’t wear cowboy hats or have rules about clothing etc. It’s not that we are into the “real” Old West as a reenactment; it’s that we’re into it as a game, a sort of fantasy. So why bring modern tactics into a period/fantasy game? Practice makes perfect, and judging by your obvious skill and practice, you’d certainly maintain your status as a champion in SASS. Nobody would argue that, and you’d do it with honor and ethics.
Nobody is up in arms about competition, so don’t try and twist it around. What folks get up in arms about is your audacity and elitism, the fact that you know quite well that this is COWBOY Action Shooting, yet you choose to play it like it was IPSC. I have NEVER once heard that this sport was started as another IPSC sport. It has always been mentioned that it was started to get away from the IPSC mentality. I’ve always heard that we were here to have fun and to share in a common spirit. Who gives a damn if loopholes let you shoot it with modern tactics! Have some guts and do what you know is right instead of acting like a lawyer! I hope I am wrong, but you’re probably too concerned with winning at all cost to realize how you could still win, and with even more glory!
In either case, all I’ve been trying to propose, as have others, is to correct that one thing: that modern methods should not dominate a period sport. Not to eliminate anyone or anything, not to keep you from firing with both your hands on one gun and cocking with your off-hand thumb, or running around in a Weaver pose. This is what would make it “fun for everyone”: you could shoot as modern as you like while period shooters wouldn’t be overshadowed. But that would mean eliminating the Overall category and your position of “Champion”. And we couldn’t have that now could we!

Posted by Sodbuster Oliver Bend, SASS #46387 (Member # 17068) on March 24, 2004 08:25 AMMarch 24, 2004 08:25 AM:

“Hondo and Doc both have it right just like my previous post said. The biggest whiners don't do much but whine most of the time. It takes too much time to do all of the grunt work to have time left over for whining. Does Joe have a website that gives good advice for free and help make shooting safer for us all? I did a search but I couldn't find it, what do you know!! On the other hand Doc's site if very good and free and helpful and I can see from the background and his clothing he is just got money rolling out of his ears, NOT. Most likely from the wealth one can make from this GAME.”People who bitch all the time about others are just lazy and not worth listening too nor talking to. So now I have to ask myself why am I talking here? I hope it is to the ones that I have met that don't bitch and pitch in and meet me with a smiling face and offer me a kind word and don't complain about my mismatched gear and show kindness to me and my wife. These are the ones I hope I am talking to because I am old enough to know the complainers don't listen to anything kind people offer them. They are too busy thinking about how they have been short changed in life and don't realize the only short changing done is by themselves to themselves. You get what you sow!!!!!I have a great time, my wife has a great time and it is because this is a great sport. Not the cheapest and not the easiest but certainly one of the greatest. I have had the pleasure of shooting with some of the best shooters in the sport and even some of the Wild Bunch and everyone of these people is a keeper. More than I can say about some of the complainers in this game.
So thanks to the people that keep this game moving forward and to everyone of you that works hard at every match you can get to.

Ah, so unless I have a website with helpful information I have no say? I have never seen anybody make a fuss at a match. When I see the IPSC bs take over I just look on in disgust, despite the fact that it’s disenfranchising the period players, but I don’t disrupt the game. Where is your heroic protest against the people who have used rudeness and name calling, even profanity, here? Where is your defense of those who are flamed and bullied whenever they have a different opinion? Where is your objection about modern tactics dominating a period game and disenfranchising the period shooters? I guess you agree with the comments about making our own game, shut up, go away, deal with it, … Yeah, I get it now: Come to the matches and smile, Post on the Wire and we can all be buddies, that is, as long as you know your place. Your hypocrisy is evident.

[ March 25, 2004, 01:40 PM: Message edited by: BisleyJoe 29738 ]

Posted by Manatee (Member # 14503) on March 25, 2004 01:27 PMMarch 25, 2004 01:27 PM:

quote:

Originally posted by Evil Roy:
.... Have the decency to use their name, not a "top shooter who puts their name on guns and has schools"(wonder who he is refering to) and know what you are talking about. Get a life.

I thought he was talkin' about China Camp!

Well, it is a strong opinion and all that, but it is still just the Wire. I think our sport is big enough to handle people who think all sorts of different ways.

Even Odessa & Me.

Posted by Manatee (Member # 14503) on March 25, 2004 01:31 PMMarch 25, 2004 01:31 PM:

Well, my above remarks were supposed to appear above The Brothers Karamazov. Since they didn't, it may not seem appropriate.

But, timing is everthing in this game.

Cain't we all jest get along?

Posted by Yakima Kid, SASS #28088L (Member # 2251) on March 25, 2004 01:31 PMMarch 25, 2004 01:31 PM:

Moderators please kill this thread or the orig.....ah, never mind.

What a weenie. Go away. PLEASE!! Go away.

Posted by Dusty Feller SASS 20010 (Member # 15694) on March 25, 2004 01:40 PMMarch 25, 2004 01:40 PM:

Sheesh,

This is a game GAME game. It is not rocket science and should be looked at with a smile and a nudge. If someone shoots a different way, with different guns, or wants to win; or not, who cares. We are all having fun.

Why don't we all let people shoot the categories they want and do the best we can in the categories we shoot in.

I shoot .45 caliber, Double Duelist, with an unmodified 97, and a modified 66. I use holsters that I had copied right out of "Packing Iron", no steel inserts, single thickness leather, and made for 7.5" barrels (because I like the looks) filled with 5.0" barrel guns.

I ALWAYS get beat by the Traditional, Modern, and Gunfighter guys and gals; well mostly anyway. ALWAYS-ALWAYS-ALWAYS, and I simply don't care.

I do this for fun and to be the best I can be in the Category that I want to shoot.

It stretches credulity that this post is so long.

Posted by Odessa Straight (Member # 12314) on March 25, 2004 01:53 PMMarch 25, 2004 01:53 PM:

Waaaaaaaait a minute that WASN'T Bisley Joe who was 6'5''; that was sum other Joe... never mind, TGR, teach the dude sum manners, especially for that danged floodin' technique he just used...never have seen that here...it BITES. Yakamah has it right if you're gonna do that kinda cheap stuff.

Hiya Manatee...Ya castin aspuritions on me?...Ummmm ya pickin on me? Yeaaaaaah I agree. We should just all get in a circle by the campfire, holdin hands, sippin hot coacoa, and sing a couple verses of CumBaYaaaaa....even with Yakamah, too.

Posted by SKEETS #22176L,TG (Member # 16791) on March 25, 2004 02:03 PMMarch 25, 2004 02:03 PM:

WOW, I thought the TG summit meetings were intense.

Why would anyone try to make something so simple, so much fun, into a discussion like this? There will always be the Top Guns, and then the rest of us. But if you are having fun, who cares????

I've been to the major shoots, was there ever a chance I would be in the winner's circle, nooo. But did that do anything to erase the grin on my face just to be there and having the time of my life, nooo.

Loosen up pards, you are taking this much too seriously!!!

Posted by Irish Red O'Toole, #48939 (Member # 13828) on March 25, 2004 02:10 PMMarch 25, 2004 02:10 PM:

Bisley Joe,

You are entitled to your opinion. In fact, I'll fight to the death to protect that right for you. But, as the 100-odd posts show, your opinion is in the definite minority. When the founder of SASS, Judge Roy Bean, says they invented this game to shoot IPSC with cowboy guns, it kinda takes away the legs your arguments are standing on.

It sounds like you want to play the game a certain way. Go right ahead. As long as you don't violate the rules, have a ball. Allow those that want to play different from you the same courtesy.

If the "Overall" catagory is the root casue of this rant, just ignore it. Every place I've been to (regional, state, local, nation match) recognizes ALL catagory winners as Champions. F. Jackson Turner has a belt buckle that says, "Champion Duelist 2003 EOT". Dixie Bell has one that says, "Champion Lady Duelist 2003 EOT". Hopefully you get what I mean.

The rest is ground that's been covered longer than either one of us has been around SASS.

Posted by Big Spring Kid, Life Member # 32163 (Member # 7285) on March 25, 2004 02:19 PMMarch 25, 2004 02:19 PM:

What do you think about modern tactics dominating a period sport?

BSK

Posted by Manatee (Member # 14503) on March 25, 2004 03:04 PMMarch 25, 2004 03:04 PM:

Irish: I don't know about Odessa, but I definitely would not fight TO THE DEATH to defend this opinion....No Way Jose!

Posted by Odessa Straight (Member # 12314) on March 25, 2004 03:24 PMMarch 25, 2004 03:24 PM:

Well, If I gotta fight to the death...don't reckon it's gonna be in the rain. Wanna live hard, die young and leave a good lookin' corpse... not hardly no waterlogged one.

Posted by Sixgun Shorty, SASS #35717 (Member # 7467) on March 25, 2004 03:42 PMMarch 25, 2004 03:42 PM:

OK..my final word on the matter..as usual you have misconstrued my point, BJ..when i said "Give it up", i meant this absurd argument that you are relentlessly pursuing...Not the game!
It's competition of an unusual and fun nature..not the real wild west of history...
Now pardon me while i go play with my smooth as silk, short stroked, race prepared Codymatic '66.. which lives in the safe next to my totally race prepared 97's and my highly tuned
S&W Schofields and Colts...I won't win EOT in a few weeks, but I'll sure have fun beating somebody!

Posted by Trapdoor Billy (Member # 12012) on March 25, 2004 03:44 PMMarch 25, 2004 03:44 PM:

quote:

Originally posted by Gold Canyon Kid #43974:

Why don't you play the game the way you want to play and quit trying to tell the rest of us what to do?

Got a stick up ya butt? He is entitled to his opinions whether or not you or anyone else happen to like them or not.

Posted by Irish Red O'Toole, #48939 (Member # 13828) on March 25, 2004 03:50 PMMarch 25, 2004 03:50 PM:

quote:

Originally posted by Manatee:
Irish: I don't know about Odessa, but I definitely would not fight TO THE DEATH to defend this opinion....No Way Jose!

Hey you anachronistic old poopie-headed sea cow,
I'd fight for his right to have this opinion. The opinion itself I have little to no use for, but the right is pretty valuable in and of itself.

Posted by Manatee (Member # 14503) on March 25, 2004 03:58 PMMarch 25, 2004 03:58 PM:

Well, I'd let Bisley Joe fight to the death fer his opinion.

Does that count Irish?

Posted by Sixgun Shorty, SASS #35717 (Member # 7467) on March 25, 2004 04:00 PMMarch 25, 2004 04:00 PM:

Manatee:
HAHAHAHAHA
Gotta love that old sea bass!

Posted by Mike Bastian SASS #9352 L (Member # 11616) on March 25, 2004 04:05 PMMarch 25, 2004 04:05 PM:

Here is an idea for ya Joe.

How about you go out and start your own shooting school. You can teach folks the way not to let modern tactics creep into their style, thus keeping it out of the sport. In fact since you seem to be against someone making a profit at this sport you could charge little to nothing for it and then donate what ever it is that you get to NCOWS or something...

What we are seeing in this sport is just part of what we as humans do, to find a faster and eaiser way to get things done. If good ole Sam Colt, John Browning and the other inventors of our fine firearms had been content with what they had at the time then we woulnd't have all the wonderments that we have today.

Quite a few people on this thread have mentioned the 2 hand grip from a historical perspective, and the refute has been that it was for long distance, accurate shooting. Well the 1851 Navy Revolver came factory sighted for 75 yards. That being the case, and seeing how I consider 75 yards to be a long distance shot (maybe some other folks do also) then would I not want to be shooting with 2 hands with that gun sighted as it is?

I posted in one of your other threads that the day is coming when a Gunfighter is going to take the overall winning position at a big shoot. Just as the modern class was overtaken by the traditional class shooters. Heck the Juniors are already there. So what then, what do we complain about when a GF wins? It's not fair, he is using Old West Tactics mixed with Modern Tactics to win.

Quite frankly I am thankful that we have modern tactics and thoughts today. If not then we would be out there shooting without ear plugs, saftey glasses, modern replicas of fantastic firearms. Infact is it not a modern tactic to shoot a reproduction? Without this sport we not not have seen the reproduction of many of the firearms that we shoot today. Think about it Modern Tactics like marketing have made this sport fun, safe and affordable for quite a few folks.

I am a 2 handed SASS shooter and proud of it. Been doing it for nearly 10 years now, plan on doing it for another 50 or 60, might even wander over to the dark side or even gunfighter. No matter what the case I will alway be having fun and laughing at the people whining because they arn't.

MB

[ March 25, 2004, 04:08 PM: Message edited by: Mike Bastian SASS #9352 L ]

Posted by Bison Bud (Member # 7838) on March 25, 2004 04:22 PMMarch 25, 2004 04:22 PM:

Bisley Joe,

Okay, now that it's painfully clear that your problem is "Modern tactics dominanting a Period Game", just what do you feel might actually fix the problem? I guess you realize that the Traditional and Modern Catagories have been part of SASS since it's inception and that they are generally the biggest catagories at any given shoot. I guess that qualifies as domination, but calling those that choose to shoot in those catagories Gamers, Whinners, and Weasels makes you as big a "Name Caller" as anyone else who has posted here. It's just my opinion, but I think it's obvious that you want to do away with the overall winner and apparently just because they don't play the game by your vision (or dare I say fantasy). Once again, I think the diversity of the SASS/CAS catagories is directly responsible for the success of our sport and it's continued growth. I wonder how many of the smaller clubs would end up shutting down if the "Two Fisted" catagories were eliminated? How could that possibly be good for the sport, even in your fantasy? Once again, the catagories in place allow us all to get out and shoot together and I can't think of a single good arguement as to why that's not a very good thing! Even if SASS decided to no longer recognize the Overall Winner, how would that change the domination of the sport by modern tactics. We all shoot the same course of fire and someone will indeed be the fastest on any given day. Even if they don't officially recognize the overall winner, you can't honestly think that folks won't be looking at the scoresheets to see who was the fastest anyway, it's just plain human nature! Since that's never going to change, then what's the point and even if there was/is a valid point, how do we go about fixing it instead of just stirring the pot on a regular basis? Good luck and good shooting to all. Adios.

Posted by Hondo O Hondo (Member # 11425) on March 25, 2004 04:22 PMMarch 25, 2004 04:22 PM:

Trapdoor Bill,

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Gold Canyon Kid #43974:

Why don't you play the game the way you want to play and quit trying to tell the rest of us what to do?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Got a stick up ya butt? He is entitled to his opinions whether or not you or anyone else happen to like them or not.
---------------------------

And YOU SIR ARE WELCOME TO HAVE AN OPINION, no matter how RUDE and HOW WRONG.

I'll explain, since you will not understand otherwise. GCK, like myself, want to play the game our way and do not want to be dictated to; is that hard to understand?

It should not be, since you "claim" to want us to "quit telling the rest of us what to do". It seems, neither side wants to be dictated to by the other. Or am I incorrect in my reading and understanding of your comments?

You and BJ should shoot how you want and the rest of us will play our game. Isn't that what you said? Please display some more SOG that you apparently have a monopoly on.

Best wishes with vain attempts... Hondo

Posted by Buckshot Shell-E, SASS # 37335 (Member # 15937) on March 25, 2004 04:23 PMMarch 25, 2004 04:23 PM:

quote:

Hey you anachronistic old poopie-headed sea cow,

Geez Irish Red !! What language.. Poopie-headed

Sounds like someone has performance envy All I can say is practice...practice...practice. You'll find out you'll be a lot happier person if you concentrate on youself and not on others. Try being more competetive with the group of shooters that you usually place close to, don't focus on the very top if it's not realistic for you.

If it will make ya feel better I'll send ya one of my ladies blue ribbons Like I've said before. Ya wanna talk about disadvantages. Try wearing a corset while ya shoot

Now we'll see what kind of sence of humor you have.

Buckshot(I know I'm gonna regret posting this) Shell-e

(Running away to hide now )

Posted by Doc Whip Lash #15561 (Member # 9566) on March 25, 2004 04:27 PMMarch 25, 2004 04:27 PM:

Howdy Pards,

Some of you guys are just FLAMING FLAMERS. I think you flame just for the heat.

I don't play CAS too much anymore mostly because it's not the way it used to be. I can't quite describe what's wrong but I just don't get the same feeling anymore. Now I slicked up all my weapons to smooth them out but geez some of the tricks that some shooters use just irks me. I didn't like it when SASS stopped with the minimum FPS. How many times have you seen the bullet travel downrange? I miss the days of just 30 shooters and longer stages. I've traveled 8 hours round trip and hung around for 5-6 hours just to shoot for 6 minutes. I think too much speed is hurting the game especially for the old timers like myself. And I understand that's progress but doesn't mean I have to like it.

Bisley Joe is my friend and his passion for this game is strong. He too misses the old days. He is good enough to win the duelist class at EOT but he doesn't have the time or the funds to practice, practice, practice like all the gamers and want to be gamers state time after time. That is not a valid point anymore. With the amount of shooters in this game now, it is time to change the way things are scored. For the major matches we need levels of competition or handicapping. I prefer a method of classifications like a softball league, A,B,C,D. If you win the D division you move up to C. Once you have won in A division you become a grand master and only compete against other grand masters. Keep in mind, no matter how much some of us practice we will never be able to be Lead Dispenser but if he is shooting against Evil Roy then I'm not discouraged before I even try.

Are you getting this? I can probably beat some of you if you are like me over 50, arthritic hands, bad eyes, bad back, no time to practice (actually it's more like too lazy to practice)and with the slow cycling '92/94 and a lever action '87 and I'd like to be recognized if I do it. But I'll never have the chance at EOT (if I could afford to go) because it's all or none.

The argument I’m going to get is that there are already divisions, ie, duelist, frontier, black powder, etc. but that doesn't address shooters skill level. There will also be statements about me just wanting to win and I say that it is human nature to want to succeed and win even if it's just for fun. Can you actually admit that you don't feel good when you win something? Well, I'd like to see SASS spread that feeling around.

I think that the "Overall Winner" should be discontinued.

Just my opinion.

Doc Whip Lash (Duelist,Bullwhipper,Horseman)

Posted by Nasty Newt # 7365 (Member # 93) on March 25, 2004 04:43 PMMarch 25, 2004 04:43 PM:

Howdy, Bisley Joe. I was just wondering what's the most fun stage you ever shot in the rain at a major match using new or used brass and The Holy Black in Evil Roy Cimarrons in the dwindling Duelist category wearing a Gene Autry outfit and pondering whether or not the Civil War was about slavery even as you were recovering from a serious injury sustained while clearing a squib from a $299 Big 5 Marlin with a blank the morning after watching Deadwood.

Regards, Nasty Newt

Posted by Sheriff Kickback (Member # 13804) on March 25, 2004 04:45 PMMarch 25, 2004 04:45 PM:

Hey Evil Roy. You hold him and I'll hit him.

Posted by Manatee (Member # 14503) on March 25, 2004 05:04 PMMarch 25, 2004 05:04 PM:

Anachronistic old poopie-head is an inside joke Shell-E. I don't take any offense. In fact, I think it was me that called ME that, if I ain't mistakin'.

Doc, it's fine to stand up fer a friend, but ta say he could Duelist EOT? I've seen the present EOT champ shoot, and I seen Bisley Joe shoot.

Heck! I even watched ME shoot.

I think ya may be gittin the cart a little ahead of the mule.

Posted by Trapdoor Billy (Member # 12012) on March 25, 2004 05:06 PMMarch 25, 2004 05:06 PM:

quote:

Originally posted by Hondo O Hondo:

And YOU SIR ARE WELCOME TO HAVE AN OPINION, no matter how RUDE and HOW WRONG.

Oh - mine is rude and wrong and no one elses is - yeah right.

quote:

I'll explain, since you will not understand otherwise. GCK, like myself, want to play the game our way and do not want to be dictated to; is that hard to understand?

It should not be, since you "claim" to want us to "quit telling the rest of us what to do". It seems, neither side wants to be dictated to by the other. Or am I incorrect in my reading and understanding of your comments?

Yeah, you are quite wrong. I didn't say one word about how the game should be played. I said the man was entitled to his opinion whether or not GCK, or anyone else for that matter, agreed with it or not.

quote:

You and BJ should shoot how you want and the rest of us will play our game. Isn't that what you said?

No, I didn't really say anything about that, but play it any way you want. Your above statement seems to contridict you previous one though.

quote:

Please display some more SOG that you apparently have a monopoly on.

Best wishes with vain attempts... Hondo

SOG help me out. Vain attempts at what?

[ March 25, 2004, 05:08 PM: Message edited by: Trapdoor Billy ]

Posted by Hondo O Hondo (Member # 11425) on March 25, 2004 05:12 PMMarch 25, 2004 05:12 PM:

Doc Whip Lash,

I appreciate your sentiments and your loyalty to BJ, but I would like to consider some points. Please ignore my SASS #, for I played the game four or five years before I joined.

"SASS stopped with minimum FPS" - I do not believe there ever was, nor should be, a minimum FPS. Many articles written about revolvers, by TEX, as to why this is impossible.

You, Doc, may be a better shooter than I, but so what? This, IMO, is not an argument about who is a better shooter; is it, but how the game is played? The same game we "ALL" started playing...

A - B - C- D.... classes???? Gees, isn't this why we have categories???? If you have not 'played IPSC' then you do not understand how to game - classifications included - and how adding an extra stage - with people to CHRON - makes matches longer, etc.....................

I also have had trauma to my old body, but Evil Roy is a few years older than I; therefore, I will never use age or aliments as a reason to try to change a sport.

If BJ won duelist at EOT, then his residual skills should allow him to 'frequently' win duelist at the local matches and frequently overall.

Did either of you serve in the "SERVICE"? Strange question, perhaps, but I think it may explain a lot.

Lets have fun shooting and not bitch. I loose matches because I make errors. But, the food and beer are still great and I shoot for the friendship and the competition. I am a winner if I never make the "top ten" at a local shoot.

This carcase still smells, even more now.

Posted by Howlin' Mad Murdock SASS #4037 (Member # 2838) on March 25, 2004 05:25 PMMarch 25, 2004 05:25 PM:

I've resisted till now, but have to jump into the middle of this.

BJ, your whole argument is based on a false premise. You have to go back 20+ years to understand. As the Judge himself said CAS was created as IPSC with cowboy guns. IPSC(combat) shooting back then was a whole lot different than it is now, there were few race guns and no red-dot sights. It was quite a bit like CAS is these days, lots of fun and good people. Remember, the guys who started this game were and continued to be IPSC shooters, CAS was an alternative, not a replacement.

Back when it all started there was only two handed shooting, Duelist, et al, came about much later, therefore the game was created with your oft-repeated "anachronistic tactics to a period Game", so it cannot have been corrupted in the period since, it was indeed IPSC with funny clothes.

Lastly, I would like to know what some of these so-called "loopholes" are, that I might start taking advantage of.

Posted by Cuts Crooked, SASS #36914 (Member # 6120) on March 25, 2004 05:57 PMMarch 25, 2004 05:57 PM:

Bisley Joe,

While you didn't respond to my comments, I really would like to know where in the rules it says the SASS is a "period game"? Others have pointd out why/how SASS came into being, and as I understand it it wasn't a "period game" in the beginning and never has been.

So...what exactly are you trying to accomplish? You seem to want us all to shoot using period tactics in a period game. Unfortunately the "period game" theory isn't going to work, as the basis of that argument is flawed from the outset.(witness the very real fact that in the 1800s they didn't engage in the type of shooting we are doing, at all! Their shooting contests were VERY different from what SASS does) Please tell us what it is you want. Don't wrap it in fancy words or stand behind "Spirit of the Game" type phrases. I'd like to hear in no nonesense words what it is you want. Do you want an end to two handed shooting in SASS? Do you want an end to all internal mods to guns in SASS? Try just saying it simply without window dressings,and without trying to justify it... please.

[ March 25, 2004, 05:59 PM: Message edited by: Cuts Crooked, SASS #36914 ]

Posted by Doc Whip Lash #15561 (Member # 9566) on March 25, 2004 06:35 PMMarch 25, 2004 06:35 PM:

Hondo O Hondo,

Yes, there was a minimum FPS in the old days of SASS. I witnessed a top 15 shooter not be able to compete in the final because his loads were below the minimum. I think the minimum was 650 or 750 FPS but I may be wrong. I'm sure Evil Roy or one of the other big shots will remember.

I SERVED, as a radio operator in the Army, 596th Signal Bn attached to the 101st Airborne Division, I Corp, Phu Bai, Vietnam, during and after the TET offensive 1968. I was also a M-60 machine gunner. I can throw a knife (KBAR) from 20 feet into a 6 inch circle, I can put your eye out with a bullwhip and I have an expert badge for both the M-14 and M-16. Now you weren't trying to pick a fight or anything were you?

But all kidding aside. The point of this is supposed to be that a duelist can not win OVERALL WINNER at EOT.

Manatee, please re-read my post. I have shot with Bisley more than a few times and with the resources needed to practice, he could very well win double duelist.

OK, I've said enough and I'm stepping out of this thread. Maybe someday you all will be enlightened but I doubt it.

Just my opinion.

Doc Whip Lash(Duelist,Bullwhipper,Horseman)

Posted by Manatee (Member # 14503) on March 25, 2004 06:44 PMMarch 25, 2004 06:44 PM:

Well, with plastic surgery, I could be handsome, Doc. But that don't make it so, does it?

Posted by BisleyJoe 29738 (Member # 9905) on March 25, 2004 08:05 PMMarch 25, 2004 08:05 PM:

Posted by Yakima Kid, SASS #28088L (Member # 2251) on March 25, 2004 01:31 PMMarch 25, 2004 01:31 PM:

Moderators please kill this thread or the orig.....ah, never mind. What a weenie. Go away. PLEASE!! Go away.

Yakima! “kill this thread?” That ain’t very American of you now is it? Remember free speech and all. Just ‘cause you can’t debate without soilin’ yer britches doesn’t mean you have to end a good topic. You know, I think the thought of me bein a “weenie” makes you feel kinda warm. So stay away! BUT: modern tactics should not control a period game.

Posted by Dusty Feller SASS 20010 (Member # 15694) on March 25, 2004 01:40 PMMarch 25, 2004 01:40 PM:

”This is a game GAME game.”
EXACTLY! This is a PERIOD game, so just play it period, or at least don’t dominate it with modern tactics!

“Why don't we all let people shoot the categories they want and do the best we can in the categories we shoot in.”

YES AGAIN! So lets get rid of Overall!

”It stretches credulity that this post is so long.”

Hey, I don’t know what your stretchin’ but keep it to yerself pard!
Posted by Odessa Straight (Member # 12314) on March 25, 2004 01:53 PMMarch 25, 2004 01:53 PM:

Waaaaaaaait a minute that WASN'T Bisley Joe who was 6'5''; that was sum other Joe... never mind, TGR, teach the dude sum manners, especially for that danged floodin' technique he just used...never have seen that here...it BITES. Yakamah has it right if you're gonna do that kinda cheap stuff.

Awe, c’mpon Odessa! I was just beginning to think you liked me! All I’m doing is answering people individually, why does that bother you? Cheap stuff? Now now, remember the cursing and flaming! Don’t be a hypocrite! And remember the issue: modern tactics should not control a period game.

Posted by SKEETS #22176L,TG (Member # 16791) on March 25, 2004 02:03 PMMarch 25, 2004 02:03 PM:

Why would anyone try to make something so simple, so much fun, into a discussion like this? There will always be the Top Guns, and then the rest of us. But if you are having fun, who cares???? I've been to the major shoots, was there ever a chance I would be in the winner's circle, nooo. But did that do anything to erase the grin on my face just to be there and having the time of my life, nooo. Loosen up pards, you are taking this much too seriously!!!

It is simple: a period game played a period way, or at least the common decency not to control it with modern tactics. And some people definitely take this much too seriously, getting so angry and rude, cursing and insulting over an opinion! You are missing the point: modern tactics should not control a period game.

Posted by Irish Red O'Toole, #48939 (Member # 13828) on March 25, 2004 02:10 PMMarch 25, 2004 02:10 PM:

You are entitled to your opinion. In fact, I'll fight to the death to protect that right for you. But, as the 100-odd posts show, your opinion is in the definite minority. When the founder of SASS, Judge Roy Bean, says they invented this game to shoot IPSC with cowboy guns, it kinda takes away the legs your arguments are standing on.

It sounds like you want to play the game a certain way. Go right ahead. As long as you don't violate the rules, have a ball. Allow those that want to play different from you the same courtesy.

If the "Overall" catagory is the root casue of this rant, just ignore it. Every place I've been to (regional, state, local, nation match) recognizes ALL catagory winners as Champions. F. Jackson Turner has a belt buckle that says, "Champion Duelist 2003 EOT". Dixie Bell has one that says, "Champion Lady Duelist 2003 EOT". Hopefully you get what I mean.

The rest is ground that's been covered longer than either one of us has been around SASS.

I know what your saying, but minority doesn’t imply wrong. And besides, the rule book backs my opinion up. All I’m saying is that modern tactics should not control a period game. I’m not trying to force anyone into anything.

Posted by Big Spring Kid, Life Member # 32163 (Member # 7285) on March 25, 2004 02:19 PMMarch 25, 2004 02:19 PM:

What do you think about modern tactics dominating a period sport?

Well, Our sport is being perverted into an IPSC match with costumes. Now we have short stroke kits for some rifles, steel-lined holsters that are almost skeleton holsters, speed straps, minimalist costumes, and other ridiculous perversions of the Spirit of the Game. I’ve seen photos of “champs” where the only reason you can tell they’re in SASS is ‘cause they’re wearing a Cowboy hat! “Top” players are being sponsored by major companies - including guns with their names on them (even when they used other brands to win). Some of these “champs” are even making their own shooting schools and teaching others how to weasel through the loopholes and further pollute our sport. Wasn’t the whole point of SASS to have a fun sport with no “pro” status and no big prizes?
I’ve been at several events where there’s a major competition and it turns into all out IPSC. The true Spirit of the Game pards have to decide whether to go to modern tactics for a chance of winning, or just shoot the period way and loose. Yet there are still those who have the audacity to call whoever protests a “whiner” or to say “go make your own game.” Talk about shamelessness!

There’s a lot of talk about how popular this sport is, but is popularity worth the price of loosing our purpose? We all want to be friendly, but is it right to keep smiling while those who want to play the game as it was meant to be played are pushed to the side? How honorable is it to come into a period sport, dominate the wins with modern tactics, and then tell others to “just have fun”? It’s pretty outrageous! Would you join a Greco-Roman wrestling club, use modern wrestling techniques, and then call the “purists” whiners for protesting?
We’ve discussed two handed shooting and its authenticity etc. Despite many attempts to use the absence of proof as justification for shooting with two hands and cocking with the weak hand thumb, running around using the Weaver stance, and loading bullets to ridiculously low levels, it just doesn’t fly. Nobody back then shot like that. Nobody back then, whether they shot a .32 or a .45 deliberately used ammunition so underpowered that the bullet could be seen gliding away.
Sure, we use gun carts and safety glasses, and we don’t ride to matches on horseback. But none of those things affect the actual competition. Some use modern powder. I have used modern powder myself, primarily because I had no other way to shoot and am currently working on switching totally to The Holly Black. The game is a period game, we may use some Hollywood ideas, we may romanticize, and that’s fine, but we got into it to play Cowboy. Yeah, the rules don’t cover some things, and we all want as few rules as possible. Well, freedom requires responsibility. I’m sure the dudes who started this had no idea that there would be so many loopholes, or so many who would exploit them. The minimal rules allow people to get involved without being overwhelmed. They allow newcomers to participate and learn, adding to their game, improving their experience and knowledge with each event. I was able to get into SASS primarily because of my good friend Doc Whiplash. He loaned me guns and a rig for my first shoot, even gave me ammo. But I had the respect for The Spirit of the Game to wait until I had at least the right clothes before attending. My first boots were a pair of old pointy cowboy boots, and I sewed some black vinyl into stovepipe tops for them. They were uncomfortable and they were hot, but everybody thought they were real, and, most importantly, it was up to me to play the right way. To say “if it ain’t in the rules it’s ok” is a copout and, in my opinion, unethical at best. Common sense, ethics, and honor should guide us, not the lust to “win”.

So why bring anachronistic tactics to a period game? Isn’t it more honorable to play it how it was meant to be played? Isn’t it more of a challenge? Isn’t it more fun? And if you just have to use modern tactics, isn’t it the honorable thing to do - even if the rules don’t cover it, even if not many are protesting - to insist that you don’t compete against those who play this game to be at least somewhat authentic?

Posted by Sixgun Shorty, SASS #35717 (Member # 7467) on March 25, 2004 03:42 PMMarch 25, 2004 03:42 PM:

OK..my final word on the matter..as usual you have misconstrued my point, BJ..when i said "Give it up", i meant this absurd argument that you are relentlessly pursuing...Not the game!It's competition of an unusual and fun nature..not the real wild west of history...

Hey I understood you were talking about this thread. Geez man, take it easy! (You know, I actually went to Winslow Arizona once, stood on a corner and all. The girl was in a Mazda though, not in a flat bed ford…) Anyway, I’m just saying that modern tactics should not control a period game.

Posted by Trapdoor Billy (Member # 12012) on March 25, 2004 03:44 PMMarch 25, 2004 03:44 PM:

Originally posted by Gold Canyon Kid #43974:

Why don't you play the game the way you want to play and quit trying to tell the rest of us what to do?

Got a stick up ya butt? He is entitled to his opinions whether or not you or anyone else happen to like them or not.

OUCH!

Posted by Mike Bastian SASS #9352 L (Member # 11616) on March 25, 2004 04:05 PMMarch 25, 2004 04:05 PM:

Here is an idea for ya Joe. How about you go out and start your own shooting school. You can teach folks the way not to let modern tactics creep into their style, thus keeping it out of the sport. In fact since you seem to be against someone making a profit at this sport you could charge little to nothing for it and then donate what ever it is that you get to NCOWS or something...What we are seeing in this sport is just part of what we as humans do, to find a faster and eaiser way to get things done. If good ole Sam Colt, John Browning and the other inventors of our fine firearms had been content with what they had at the time then we woulnd't have all the wonderments that we have today.

You just don’t get it. How about this idea: modern tactics should not control a period game.

Posted by Bison Bud (Member # 7838) on March 25, 2004 04:22 PMMarch 25, 2004 04:22 PM:

Okay, now that it's painfully clear that your problem is "Modern tactics dominanting a Period Game", just what do you feel might actually fix the problem? I guess you realize that the Traditional and Modern Catagories have been part of SASS since it's inception and that they are generally the biggest catagories at any given shoot. I guess that qualifies as domination, but calling those that choose to shoot in those catagories Gamers, Whinners, and Weasels makes you as big a "Name Caller" as anyone else who has posted here. It's just my opinion, but I think it's obvious that you want to do away with the overall winner and apparently just because they don't play the game by your vision (or dare I say fantasy).

Sorry it had to be painful, but some folks just don’t get it! Glad you do though! The only other part you got was about getting rid of Overall. I never said to get rid of Modern or Traditional.

Even if SASS decided to no longer recognize the Overall Winner, how would that change the domination of the sport by modern tactics.

Simple: people win in their category.

Posted by Hondo O Hondo (Member # 11425) on March 25, 2004 04:22 PMMarch 25, 2004 04:22 PM:

And YOU SIR ARE WELCOME TO HAVE AN OPINION, no matter how RUDE and HOW WRONG.

I'll explain, since you will not understand otherwise. GCK, like myself, want to play the game our way and do not want to be dictated to; is that hard to understand?

It should not be, since you "claim" to want us to "quit telling the rest of us what to do". It seems, neither side wants to be dictated to by the other. Or am I incorrect in my reading and understanding of your comments?

You and BJ should shoot how you want and the rest of us will play our game. Isn't that what you said? Please display some more SOG that you apparently have a monopoly on.

Hondo! Hondo! Come on now, let’s chastise the ones who cursed way before and who started insulting and stuff. It seems that it’s impossible for you to understand the idea that modern tactics should not control a period game.

Posted by Doc Whip Lash #15561 (Member # 9566) on March 25, 2004 04:27 PMMarch 25, 2004 04:27 PM:

Howdy Pards,

Some of you guys are just FLAMING FLAMERS. I think you flame just for the heat.

I don't play CAS too much anymore mostly because it's not the way it used to be. I can't quite describe what's wrong but I just don't get the same feeling anymore. Now I slicked up all my weapons to smooth them out but geez some of the tricks that some shooters use just irks me. I didn't like it when SASS stopped with the minimum FPS. How many times have you seen the bullet travel downrange? I miss the days of just 30 shooters and longer stages. I've traveled 8 hours round trip and hung around for 5-6 hours just to shoot for 6 minutes. I think too much speed is hurting the game especially for the old timers like myself. And I understand that's progress but doesn't mean I have to like it.

BisleyJoe is my friend and his passion for this game is strong. He too misses the old days. He is good enough to win the duelist class at EOT but he doesn't have the time or the funds to practice, practice, practice like all the gamers and want to be gamers state time after time. That is not a vaild point anymore. With the amount of shooters in this game now, it is time to change the way things are scored. For the major matches we need levels of competion or handicapping. I prefer a method of classifications like a softball league, A,B,C,D. If you win the D division you move up to C. Once you have won in A division you become a grand master and only compete against other grand masters. Keep in mind, no matter how much some of us practice we will never be able to be Lead Dispenser but if he is shooting against Evil Roy then I'm not discourged before I even try.

Are you getting this? I can probably beat some of you if you are like me over 50, arthritic hands, bad eyes, bad back, no time to practice (actually it's more like to lazy to practice)and with the slow cycling '92/94 and a lever action '87 and I'd like to be recongnized if I do it. But I'll never have the chance at EOT (if I could afford to go) because it's all or none.

The arguement I going to get is that there are already divisions, ie, duelist, frontier, black powder, etc. but that doesn't address shooters skill level. There will also be statements about me just wanting to win and I say that it is human nature to want to succeed and win even if it's just for fun. Can you actually admit that you don't feel good when you win something? Well, I'd like to see SASS spread that feeling around.

I think that the "Overall Winner" should be discontinued.

Just my opinion.

Doc Whip Lash (Duelist,Bullwhipper,Horseman)

Hey Doc, AMEN!Your pard, Bisley Joe

Posted by Nasty Newt # 7365 (Member # 93) on March 25, 2004 04:43 PMMarch 25, 2004 04:43 PM:

Howdy, Bisley Joe. I was just wondering what's the most fun stage you ever shot in the rain at a major match using new or used brass and The Holy Black in Evil Roy Cimarrons in the dwindling Duelist category wearing a Gene Autry outfit and pondering whether or not the Civil War was about slavery even as you were recovering from a serious injury sustained while clearing a squib from a $299 Big 5 Marlin with a blank the morning after watching Deadwood.

Well, I’ve never shot in the rain at a major match using new or used brass and The Holy Black in Evil Roy Cimarrons in the dwindling Duelist category wearing a Gene Autry outfit and pondering whether or not the Civil War was about slavery even as I was recovering from a serious injury sustained while clearing a squib from a $299 Big 5 Marlin with a blank the morning after watching Deadwood. BUT, I shot at the first Top Gun after working two 12 hr shifts with three hours of sleep in two days and driving with my pard Doc all the way from South Florida to meet our other pard Hellwood and his family to shoot together and got a spring for my Marlin from Manatee while wearing a double Texas ranger rig from El Paso Saddlery and carrying my two Bisley revolvers, one of which broke a hand spring and I had to use a borrowed gun that busted too while a pretty hot looking gal kept bendin over in front of me and I was gonna make my move when her boyfriend showed up and I figured it’s be wrong to mess with another man’s woman even if she wanted it, all while watching some gamers dominate a final run and thinking that modern tactics shouldn’t dominate a period sport but I still had lots of fun.

Posted by Sheriff Kickback (Member # 13804) on March 25, 2004 04:45 PMMarch 25, 2004 04:45 PM:

Hey Evil Roy. You hold him and I'll hit him.

Now, no funny fantasies dude! Control yourself! Remember that modern tactics should not control a period game!

Posted by Trapdoor Billy (Member # 12012) on March 25, 2004 05:06 PMMarch 25, 2004 05:06 PM:

No, I didn't really say anything about that, but play it any way you want. Your above statement seems to contridict you previous one though.

Trapdoor Billy, thanks for taking a stand. The false accusations always seem to fly when there’s a dissenting opinion. It doesn’t matter that this is just discussion; some folks want to make it personal. Anyway, good shooting to ya pard.
Posted by Hondo O Hondo (Member # 11425) on March 25, 2004 05:12 PMMarch 25, 2004 05:12 PM:

Did either of you serve in the "SERVICE"? Strange question, perhaps, but I think it may explain a lot. Lets have fun shooting and not bitch. This carcase still smells, even more now.

As far as myself, never joined the service. Grew up with John Wayne and General Patton as heroes. I gave up on the service in high school when women were allowed into West Point and lawyers were being called officers. Never have I regretted not serving more than on and after 9/11! As far as shooting and not complaining, why don’t we just shoot a period game the period way or at least not dominate it with modern tactics? I think you mean “carcass”. Either way, it only smells because you can’t have your way. Remember: the point is that modern tactics should not dominate a period game.

Posted by Howlin' Mad Murdock SASS #4037 (Member # 2838) on March 25, 2004 05:25 PMMarch 25, 2004 05:25 PM:

BJ, your whole argument is based on a false premise. You have to go back 20+ years to understand. As the Judge himself said CAS was created as IPSC with cowboy guns. IPSC(combat) shooting back then was a whole lot different than it is now, there were few race guns and no red-dot sights. It was quite a bit like CAS is these days, lots of fun and good people. Remember, the guys who started this game were and continued to be IPSC shooters, CAS was an alternative, not a replacement.

The rules don’t seem to back that up.

American history buffs and serious shooters alike agree the use of vintage firearms, authentic costuming, unique targets, and fast action make Cowboy Action Shooting™ one of the most interesting of all shooting sports for both spectator and contestant.
It is the intention and hope of SASS these requirements will serve to preserve and protect
Competing in “The Spirit of the Game” means you fully participate in what the competition asks. You do not look for ways to create an advantage out of what is or is not stated as a rule or shooting procedure. Some folks would call “The Spirit of the Game” nothing more than good sportsmanship. Whatever you call it, if you don’t have it, Cowboy Action Shooting™ is not your game .

Seems pretty clear cut to me.

Posted by Cuts Crooked, SASS #36914 (Member # 6120) on March 25, 2004 05:57 PMMarch 25, 2004 05:57 PM:

While you didn't respond to my comments, I really would like to know where in the rules it says the SASS is a "period game"? Others have pointd out why/how SASS came into being, and as I understand it it wasn't a "period game" in the beginning and never has been. So...what exactly are you trying to accomplish? You seem to want us all to shoot using period tactics in a period game. Unfortunately the "period game" theory isn't going to work, as the basis of that argument is flawed from the outset.(witness the very real fact that in the 1800s they didn't engage in the type of shooting we are doing, at all! Their shooting contests were VERY different from what SASS does) Please tell us what it is you want. Don't wrap it in fancy words or stand behind "Spirit of the Game" type phrases. I'd like to hear in no nonesense words what it is you want. Do you want an end to two handed shooting in SASS? Do you want an end to all internal mods to guns in SASS? Try just saying it simply without window dressings,and without trying to justify it... please.

From the rules:
“Cowboy Action Shooting™ is a multifaceted shooting sport in which contestants compete with firearms typical of those used in the taming of the Old West: single action revolvers, lever action rifles, and side by side double barreled, pre-1899 pump, or lever action shotguns. The shooting competition is staged in a unique, characterized, ‘Old West’ style.”
The truly unique aspect of Cowboy Action Shooting™ is the requirement placed on authentic period or western screen dress. Each participant is required to adopt a shooting alias appropriate to a character or profession of the late 19th century, or a Hollywood western star, and develop a costume accordingly.

American history buffs and serious shooters alike agree the use of vintage firearms, authentic costuming, unique targets, and fast action make Cowboy Action Shooting™ one of the most interesting of all shooting sports for both spectator and contestant.
“The firearm must “look” period.”

I have stated many times, and quite clearly, that Overall is the problem. Although I believe that IPSC style shooting doesn’t even belong here, I would not want to disenfranchise anyone (unlike some gamers who want to have it their way), so we can all compete in our class and get rid of overall. I am not trying to hide behind “fancy words”, just writing in English.

Posted by BisleyJoe 29738 (Member # 9905) on March 25, 2004 08:10 PMMarch 25, 2004 08:10 PM:

So why don’t we all work together to keep everybody shooting how they want while not allowing Cowboy Action Shooting to become IPSC? I figure Overall is really the only obstacle. SASS is a great game, let’s pony up and work on keeping the Cowboy in Cowboy Action Shooting! Bisley Joe

Posted by T. G. Reaper, SASS# 25972 (Member # 1175) on March 25, 2004 08:12 PMMarch 25, 2004 08:12 PM:

Hey Odessa:

6'5" and 290! Hmmmm....he's a biggen. Might have to mount his head next to the cape buffalo that made the mistake of tanglin with little ol' 5'7" 160 lb T.G. Busted him right betwixt the eyes at about 15 FEET in full charge in the tall grass. Nothing gets me very excited after that little incident. Not even this dude.....

TGR

Posted by Gold Canyon Kid #43974 (Member # 11280) on March 25, 2004 08:16 PMMarch 25, 2004 08:16 PM:

Dear Bisley Joe, I regret to inform you that many, many of your peers sitting around the cowboy campfire tonight getting ready for a big shoot tomorrow, done voted you off the island. We decided we don't give a hoot (hoot is a nice word for the "s" word) how you feel about it. We decided other things also but concluded with our minds muddied by too many tall cool ones, that they be best unstated in a public forum. Sorry, but that's the breaks. Hope you enjoy shooting with your next new best buddies that want to dress period, shoot period, shoot crapy equipment, shoot one handed and never practice, but still expect to win overall in their matches.

Heck, if I'm going to get slammed, I might as well do something to enjoy it.

Posted by Wild Gene Hickup, SASS #35870 (Member # 5615) on March 25, 2004 08:17 PMMarch 25, 2004 08:17 PM:

Joe, based on you logic, I'd suppose you would like "under God" taken back out of the pledge, after all, that's the way it used to be.

Posted by T. G. Reaper, SASS# 25972 (Member # 1175) on March 25, 2004 08:24 PMMarch 25, 2004 08:24 PM:

Ok...this is all I have to say about his ENTIRE post....

Wild Gene...do you type Kilroy into every reply or is it part of your signature?

Just curious.

Your pard,

TGR

Posted by Wild Gene Hickup, SASS #35870 (Member # 5615) on March 25, 2004 08:28 PMMarch 25, 2004 08:28 PM:

It's in my signature. And you ain't so tough...wait till you meet my wife.

Posted by McCandless (Member # 5711) on March 25, 2004 08:42 PMMarch 25, 2004 08:42 PM:

Ok, I've read through this thread, but I still don't understand. What is this "Some of these "champs" are even making their own shooting schools and teaching others how to weasel through the loopholes and further pollute our sport" about?
Now, I shoot Frontiersman, and slowly at that, but I've attended three shooting schools, which were taught by a total of eight "champs". I didn't hear them espouse a single "weasel" point, or teach anything that would pollute the game.
They taught mostly front sight, Front Sight, FRONT SIGHT!! They taught how to prepare yourself and your equipment for a match, they taught and stressed SAFETY!, they taught how to acquire the target faster and shoot smoother, they taught better control of the firearm, they taught how to load a shotgun faster, they taught the importance of proper sleep and nutrition before and during a major match and the importance of staying well hydrated, they taught the need to practice untik certain moves became muscle memory, they taught the need to not have holsters that collapse while you're trying to put a gun in them. They taught all sorts of stuff, but dang it, I didn't learn no weasel stuff, I must have not been listening close enough!
But then you turn around and say the whole point of your writ was to do away with the Overall Winner? The words don't back up that conclusion.

You talk about the old days. Lemme remind you that this started as IPSC with cowboy hats and the first match was won by a fellow shooting a blackhawk in .30 carbine, two handed.

I think what you might be looking for is NCOWS. They're a great outfit and may be more to your liking. As for myself, I'm too busy messing with my percussion caps and powder to bother with what other folks are shooting, and I'm having fun doing it.

the view from where I sit,
McC

[ March 25, 2004, 08:43 PM: Message edited by: McCandless ]

Posted by BisleyJoe 29738 (Member # 9905) on March 25, 2004 08:46 PMMarch 25, 2004 08:46 PM:

Posted by zip wyatt, SASS #28494 (Member # 2287) on March 24, 2004 11:11 AMMarch 24, 2004 11:11 AM:

Bisley Joe,

It is clear you have strong feelings on the subject and that, in your own way, you're concerned about the future of SASS. However, I think if you read the preceding posts, you'll get a feel for how most folks feel about this subject. Personally, IMHO, there will always be folks that will strive to be the best at what they do. Some do it by practizing till it hurts, some others might bend the rules some. Either way, as many of the above pards said, I don't care. As long as I can shoot and dress up and compete against myself, I'm happy. I could really give a hoot what Evil Roy is doing because it really doesn't affect me. I hope you're able to feel the same and have fun with the rest of us.

All I’m saying is that modern tactics shouldn’t dominate a period sport. Regardless of whether or not you practice ‘till you bleed, a period shooter doesn’t stand much of a chance against somebody shooting like its IPSC. Just as I wouldn’t go to an IPSC match and complain that my single action revolvers had no chance against their speed guns, I expect them not to come into this period game and try to control it with modern tactics. At least they could agree to have their own class instead of misrepresenting CAS with Overall. What Evil Roy is doing, along with the others who shoot IPSC style is indeed affecting all of us. Have you not heard them say countless times “go make your own game!”?

Posted by Wild Gene Hickup, SASS #35870 (Member # 5615) on March 24, 2004 12:01 PMMarch 24, 2004 12:01 PM:

BJ, the other day, the Judge was on Shooting Gallery. He told the host something like "we started this as a way to shoot IPSIC matches with our cowboy guns". Sounds pretty clear to me. [That was Wednesday, March 10, 2004, at ten a'clock PM, PST, on The Outdoor Channel].

Maybe he did. All I ever heard about SASS was that it was started to get away from the big win mentality of IPSC. I’m not the only one saying this either. And the rule book doesn’t back that up.

You mentioned that Buck came off “as being a crotchety old jerk” because of his response to Gold Canyon Kid’s rudeness. Well you’re certainly entitled to your view. But I can’t help but wonder why you don’t say the same thing to the people who have insulted for no reason, and who have used profanity on this thread, and others. Selective righteousness I figure.

The point is: that modern tactics should not monopolize a period game.

Posted by Yakima Kid, SASS #28088L (Member # 2251) on March 24, 2004 01:26 PMMarch 24, 2004 01:26 PM:

Don't you ever get tired of RE-PRINTING the same tired statements over and over again? At least have the decency to rewrite the thoughts so that people think they are reading something new.

If you are referring to my reposting “The point is: that modern tactics should not monopolize a period game.” There is a very good reason. See, some folks can’t seem to read an opinion without putting their own prejudices into what they are “reading”. These folks then start accusing the writer of all sorts of things that were never said, often using insults and jibes instead of intelligent debate. When the writer defends his position he is accused of having a chip on his shoulder, of whining, etc. That’s why I post “modern tactics should not monopolize a period game.” so many times: so that the comprehension impaired can maybe get the actual point.

Now, as far as decency is concerned, I wonder why some folks have to insult and even curse over simple opinions. I also wonder why some folks are so hypocritical that they will point out something like the repetition of certain statements (such as “The point is: that modern tactics should not monopolize a period game.”). Choosing to chastise someone for repetition, especially when that repetition is necessary, and ignoring those who curse, insult, and disrupt, is akin to being on the bully’s side so you can be safe, and is akin also to moral cowardice. I hope then that this satisfies your desire for reading something new. If not, there are plenty of magazines and books that abound with new reading material (some even have pictures). But please remember, above all, that the point is: that modern tactics should not monopolize a period game.

Posted by Colt McAllister (Member # 7587) on March 24, 2004 01:34 PMMarch 24, 2004 01:34 PM:

Once again a cut and run. This happens to every post like this. A member comes on and gives everyone his big oppinions and never responds to all of the post that disagrees with him. Do yourself a favor join NCOWS. Nothing against NCOWs. They do it their way and enjoy it.

Hey pard, no “cut and run here. I’m just taking the time to respond. Join NCOWS aye, how original, and cowboy-like, of you. Why don’t you play a period game in a period way, or just join IPSC?The point is: that modern tactics should not monopolize a period game.

Posted by Cuts Crooked, SASS #36914 (Member # 6120) on March 24, 2004 01:35 PMMarch 24, 2004 01:35 PM:

BJ, Ya said wat ya had ta say, 'n others responded wif wat they had to say....looks like you lose. (not really, you only lose if you give up on having a good time and let folks run ya off)

However, let me add the rules have always been there for everyone to see. and I have to ask , Iffin this wasn't yer game, why why did you join the outfit? Link to the rules

Sure you 'cn werk ta git the rules changed to yer way of thinkin' But I'll garantee yer gonna lose agin iffin ya try. Jist count the responses above iffin ya wanna preview of tryin THAT!

Best ya take the Judges advise pard, "Shoot your own game"! Have fun, doin what YOU want to do and don' worry 'bout the other guy. Right now they's sumpthin fer everyone in SASS, iffin yer into authenticity a place has been provided fer ya, iffin yer into ISPC with cowboy guns, we can accomadate ya, If yer a driven competitor they's room fer ya, and iffin yer jist in to having a fun day at the range we got just about any catagory ya ca think up to do it in!

Ease up a might Pard! And, "Shoot your own game"

I hardly see this as a win/loose situation. It’s just an opinion. If anyone is losing it’s those who want to discuss things without insults and idiotic behavior.

In the rule book I read:
“Cowboy Action Shooting™ is a multifaceted shooting sport in which contestants compete with firearms typical of those used in the taming of the Old West: single action revolvers, lever action rifles, and side by side double barreled, pre-1899 pump, or lever action shotguns. The shooting competition is staged in a unique, characterized, ‘Old West’ style.”

The truly unique aspect of Cowboy Action Shooting™ is the requirement placed on authentic period or western screen dress. Each participant is required to adopt a shooting alias appropriate to a character or profession of the late 19th century, or a Hollywood western star, and develop a costume accordingly.

American history buffs and serious shooters alike agree the use of vintage firearms, authentic costuming, unique targets, and fast action make Cowboy Action Shooting™ one of the most interesting of all shooting sports for both spectator and contestant.

It is the intention and hope of SASS these requirements will serve to preserve and protect
Cowboy Action Shooting™ from the gimmickry and technical gamesmanship that have had such a negative effect on other shooting disciplines.

About the Spirit of the Game:
Competing in “The Spirit of the Game” means you fully participate in what the competition asks. You do not look for ways to create an advantage out of what is or is not stated as a rule or shooting procedure. Some folks would call “The Spirit of the Game” nothing more than good sportsmanship. Whatever you call it, if you don’t have it, Cowboy Action Shooting™ is not your game.

There are statements throughout such as
“The firearm must “look” period.”

“General “Spirit of the Game “ guidance … if you have to ask permission to use something because it offers you a competitive advantage, the response will nearly always be “no”.”

Bandoleers, cartridge belts, and pouches must be of traditional design.

Modern drop pouches, combat-style shotgun loops, wrist or forearm bandoleers, and such are not allowed.

Electronic timers are generally used for timing all SASS events, but stopwatches may be used.

(Hey, didn’t somebody ask me “then why don’t we use a stopwatch?” or something of that nature?)

CLOTHING and ACCOUTERMENTS
Cowboy Action Shooting™ is a combination of historical re-enactment and Saturday morning at the matinee. Participants may choose the style of costume they wish to wear, but all clothing must be typical of the late 19th century, a B western movie, or Western television series. SASS puts a great deal of emphasis on costuming because it adds so much to the uniqueness of our game and helps create a festive, informal atmosphere that supports the friendly, fraternal feeling we encourage in our competitors.

Thanks for suggesting that I read the rules again. Now more than ever I see that modern tactics should not dominate a period sport.

Posted by Ned B. Dixon SASS# 39511 (Member # 7728) on March 24, 2004 02:49 PMMarch 24, 2004 02:49 PM:

This game has to have heroes. I look up to them, hope to be more like them someday. Not many people would come to matches to see how I shoot!

Heroes are those who don’t look for little loopholes to win, they are those who come into a period game and win or loose by playing in a period way, or at least have the ethics to refuse controlling a period game with modern tactics. The others are gamers and lawyers. I don’t go to any match to see how you or anyone shoots: I go to shoot as best I can and to enjoy camaraderie and The Spirit of the Game.

Red Goat Jackson, you speak of Bass fishing. The point is that, if it were a sport of Bass Fishing involving, let’s say, native American methods, you wouldn’t try and win using modern techniques and rods would you? Modern tactics should not dominate a period game.

Posted by Jailbird ---Finally Joined--#48,305 (Member # 4430) on March 24, 2004 02:58 PMMarch 24, 2004 02:58 PM:

When I am forced to shoot "Double Duelist" I DO NOT WHINE -- I shoot it as such.
I do not care if you use 1 hand,2 hands or Gunfighter. Why are you so insistent that we all shoot "just like you" ?? I DO WISH PEOPLE WOULD GET OFF THE "IPSC SUCKS B.S." The finest people shoot IPSC,IDPA,bullseye, ETC ETC -- we are ALL SHOOTERS.

When have you been “forced” to shoot Double Duelist? I don’t care if you use two or one hand either, so long as you don’t compete against period shooters using modern techniques. I never said that everyone should shoot like I do. I never said that IPSC “sucks”, just that its methods don’t belong in SASS.

You have the God given right to say what you think --- when you say it in public,it gives the rest of us the right to say what we think.

And I have responded politely to intelligent conversation. I’ll wait for your reprimand of those who have been rude and cursed etc.

I like to think you are a good Pard and not the anti-IPSC, 1 hand only , my way or no way type that you appear in print.

All you have to do is read what I wrote without reading into it.

Posted by Lucky Deuce 1951, SASS #35350 (Member # 10638) on March 24, 2004 03:13 PMMarch 24, 2004 03:13 PM:

I agree with you 100 percent... However, might as well give it up... Kind of like trying to convince a mule to do something it already has deceided it doesn't want to do.... No matter how much you try, people are set in thier ways and don't want to be confused with facts or change the way they have done things. Every so often I forget how people are and either bring up or join in the discussion (I say discussion but it usually turns into a fight) for more authenticity and suddenly come to my senses when I realize the futility of trying to change anyones mind. I figure those of us who want authenticity can do our thing and everybody else can be as unathentic as they want to... Its too bad NCOWS isn't a larger organization with more members but it isn't so we have to just bite the bullet and get on with life and put up with the nonsense and ignorance and shoot and dress the way we think is appropriate...

This may very well be a losing battle, but then again maybe not. The anger and zeal expressed by some of these people shows just how insecure they really are. Regardless, what we are saying is valid, and we are correct.

Posted by Evil Roy (Member # 7779) on March 24, 2004 03:24 PMMarch 24, 2004 03:24 PM:

This for all you dirtbags and morons Bisley Joe is talking about who have learned all those loopholes to weasel through at my school. Loopholes like sight alignment, equipment, eye and ear protcection, shooting stages, gun handling, safety, PLAYING WITHIN THE RULES, and all that other weasel stuff. Bisley Joe when you decide to trash and insult someone do me a favor. Have the decency to use their name, not a "top shooter who puts their name on guns and has schools"(wonder who he is refering to) and know what you are talking about. Get a life.

Hey there, true colors aye? When did I call anyone a dirt bag or moron? I didn’t mention any names because my purpose was not to single anyone out, but to object to certain attitudes. I did not trash you or anyone else, but I figure it was your conscience that hurt more than my words. Speaking of “trashing” I see you missed the fellows casting curse words and insults and telling others to “shut up” “go away” “make your own game”… all over opinions. Come to think of it, nah, I doubt you missed it. You have selective righteousness.

You are typical of the gamer clique. All is fine and all are friends until somebody objects to the fact that you are using any loophole you can find to win. You don’t even have the common courtesy to admit that maybe dominating a period sport with modern tactics is not right. As I said before, it’s obvious that you have a great deal of skill and put in a hell of a lot of practice. No one could, or would want to, deprive you or anyone else of the chance to win. So I wonder why you don’t return the same courtesy? “Get a life”? I’d figure that coming to a period game would arouse some common sense to play it in a period way. Considering winning in what is supposed to be a fun game as so important that you would set aside principles and common sense dictates that it is you, sir, who needs to get a life.

I’m sure you are a good man and a decent, honorable individual, but your method is unbecoming of a “champ”, or of common ethics. This thread is already turning into a flame fest and, judging by the tail kissers, will probably get even worse now that I have dared offend you, their god. All this because I believe that a period game should be played a period way, or at least shouldn’t be dominated by modern tactics.

Posted by Sheriff Kickback (Member # 13804) on March 24, 2004 03:27 PMMarch 24, 2004 03:27 PM:

”First off, the Cowboy Chronicle should get whatever they paid you back. Get a life B^@&#*$J. There was no competition that resembled cowboy action shooting back then. This is 2004. I personally like all the pards you negatively insinuated about in a cowardly way. Take up another profession. You're out of your league.

First off, I didn’t get paid by the Chronicle. Oh, that was a joke? OOPS! What exactly do you mean by B^@&#*$J? I see the B for Bisley, and the J for Joe, but what do the other symbols stand for? Are you being naughty? Go suck on a bar of soap. Obviously there was no competition resembling cowboy action shooting in the Old West. Why would they want to recreate their own time? What’s wrong with you man? But they had games like checkers and chess, and you couldn’t use tactics from one in the other (you still can’t by the way, can you grasp that one?). True, it is 2004, so act like you’re in it instead of like back when you were in third grade.

Now I’m glad to see you like all them pards, but I was hardly cowardly in my comments. On the contrary, I made no specific allusion to anyone, and I stated my opinion regardless of who disagreed. Maybe when I used the word “buffoon” you felt I was referring to you? Didn’t even know you were around then, pard. As far as profession, do you mean SASS? I hope not. Now, you “Kickback”, relax, have a nice rest, calm down, and think about the idea that modern tactics should not dominate a period game.

Posted by Doc Shapiro (Member # 4158) on March 24, 2004 03:29 PMMarch 24, 2004 03:29 PM:

CAS from the SASS point of view (as I understand it) is that it was never meant to be an authentic period correct game. It is/was supposed to be a fun shooting sport with an old west "flavor" and shooting similar guns. I've even heard at least one of the founders say that they wanted to shoot IPSC type stuff with cowboy guns. Not try to recreate a period of history. Now it's possible that I have that wrong (or some of it), and if so someone will correct me. But I don't think I do.The problem is with the basic premise (which I'll pull from the title of the original post): Why anachronistic tactics in a period Game? This isn't a period game, never was meant to be.

From the rules:
“The truly unique aspect of Cowboy Action Shooting™ is the requirement placed on authentic period or western screen dress. Each participant is required to adopt a shooting alias appropriate to a character or profession of the late 19th century, or a Hollywood western star, and develop a costume accordingly.

Cowboy Action Shooting™ is a multifaceted shooting sport in which contestants compete with firearms typical of those used in the taming of the Old West: single action revolvers, lever action rifles, and side by side double barreled, pre-1899 pump, or lever action shotguns. The shooting competition is staged in a unique, characterized, ‘Old West’ style.”

American history buffs and serious shooters alike agree the use of vintage firearms, authentic costuming, unique targets, and fast action make Cowboy Action Shooting™ one of the most interesting of all shooting sports for both spectator and contestant.

It is the intention and hope of SASS these requirements will serve to preserve and protect
Cowboy Action Shooting™ from the gimmickry and technical gamesmanship that have had such a negative effect on other shooting disciplines.

About the Spirit of the Game:
Competing in “The Spirit of the Game” means you fully participate in what the competition asks. You do not look for ways to create an advantage out of what is or is not stated as a rule or shooting procedure. Some folks would call “The Spirit of the Game” nothing more than good sportsmanship. Whatever you call it, if you don’t have it, Cowboy Action Shooting™ is not your game.

There are statements throughout such as
“The firearm must “look” period.”

“General “Spirit of the Game “ guidance … if you have to ask permission to use something because it offers you a competitive advantage, the response will nearly always be “no”.”

Bandoleers, cartridge belts, and pouches must be of traditional design.

Modern drop pouches, combat-style shotgun loops, wrist or forearm bandoleers, and such are not allowed.

Electronic timers are generally used for timing all SASS events, but stopwatches may be used.

(Hey, didn’t somebody ask me “then why don’t we use a stopwatch?” or something of that nature?)

CLOTHING and ACCOUTERMENTS
Cowboy Action Shooting™ is a combination of historical re-enactment and Saturday morning at the matinee. Participants may choose the style of costume they wish to wear, but all clothing must be typical of the late 19th century, a B western movie, or Western television series. SASS puts a great deal of emphasis on costuming because it adds so much to the uniqueness of our game and helps create a festive, informal atmosphere that supports the friendly, fraternal feeling we encourage in our competitors.

You were saying?

Posted by Dakota Clay (Member # 14071) on March 24, 2004 04:22 PMMarch 24, 2004 04:22 PM:
No offense pard, I really do respect people that come out and shoot just for the fun, but you said it yourself, SASS is a sport, it's a competition, if you don't like the things others do, either get rules passed stoppin what they're doin, er quit yer bitchin an have fun shootin, otherwise, git off the range...If you're out just for the recreation of it an don't like what SASS has became, go to the range by yerself an shoot when us DGB's ain't around.

No offense taken. Just take the time to actually read what I’ve written instead of reading into it. From your statement above, it’s obvious you haven’t done that yet. Modern tactics should not dominate a period sport.

Posted by cas6969 (Member # 2299) on March 24, 2004 05:15 PMMarch 24, 2004 05:15 PM:

I LOVE reading the replies to posts like this. You guys always go out of your way to prove their point, and point out the worst aspects of the sport and in people.

As true as it gets. Amazing how many have shown their true colors by turning an opinion into a flame fest, insulting, cursing, and behaving like brats.

Posted by Hondo O Hondo (Member # 11425) on March 24, 2004 05:57 PMMarch 24, 2004 05:57 PM:

The truth is never bad. We can all disagree, at times, but logic should control the argument, for opinions are of no real use or value in a formal format.

So you agree that the insults and cursing are not necessary! This is hardly a “formal format”. Are you sober? Your statement: “Since BJ has hunkered down, this post is smelling more than ever.” Cuts right to the REAL issue with you and your buds. Man! You said it! What bothers you most is that I “hunkered down”! You can’t stand not bullying someone into submission. Just don’t lose track of the real issue: Modern tactics should not dominate a period sport.

Posted by Gold Canyon Kid #43974 (Member # 11280) on March 24, 2004 06:09 PMMarch 24, 2004 06:09 PM:

”This post is an excellent example of why the Cowboy Chronicle has become an embarassment to our sport-at least the front half of the monthly newsmagazine. The editorials, letters to the editor don't tell a monthly positive story for our sport. There are clear examples that are positive however and I appaud those authors. I used to give my old copies of the CC to prospective new shooters but no longer do so. Last time I did it the prospective shooter brought it back and thanked me for saving him all the pain of belonging to another group that bitched all the time. Apparently whomever selects the content for the editorials and letters to the editor must not want our sport to continue healthy. Please someone balance off the negative articles each month with some positive letters and editorial articles. “

The embarrassments to our sport are the babies and gamers who want it their way and then cry foul when someone challenges them. You’ve got the typical “in-crowd” attitude. You like using the rules and loopholes and hate when it’s pointed out. Maybe people protest because there’s something wrong. Now, I’m still waiting for your comments against the cursing and rudeness and flaming on the wire! Ah, they support your view. Thou art hypocritical, sir. Let’s not get away from the issue: Modern tactics should not dominate a period sport.

Posted by Sixgun Shorty, SASS #35717 (Member # 7467) on March 24, 2004 06:55 PMMarch 24, 2004 06:55 PM:
“
…only practice, talent and dedication will enable you to take advantage of short stroking or any other internal mechanical improvemenet.. I would also postulate, that ANY top SASS shooter could easily whip the 98% of us SASS shooters that are average, recreational shooters, with any totally stock lever gun regardless of what mods the rest of us have had done to our guns..much like Andre Agasse could beat 98% of all recreational tennis players with a 1920's wooden racket.”

Good point Sixgun, all the more reason not to allow Modern tactics to dominate a period sport!

Posted by Wes Durn SASS#18998 (Member # 11766) on March 24, 2004 06:58 PMMarch 24, 2004 06:58 PM:

"Authenticity?" You want true authenticity - some of you may be surprised to find that a lot of the clothing, etc. we use in CAS falls pretty far short of truly accurate, historical garments, leathers, footwear, etc. Yes, most of it very much RESEMBLES the originals in some or many ways. But truly accurate? Rarely.(And I'm not refering to the B-movie stuff either). CAS would be one gigantic anachronism if historical accuracy were what the game was about. But its not - and that's the key. You can deny it, give the flat-earth society arguments, etc. all you want. It is a fantasy game to the vast majority who participate TODAY, and NONE of us should be insisting that ours is the only proper way. CAS has rules that state what is okay and what is not...that's all we need to go by.

True, but that doesn’t mean to just allow anything. Nobody said that historical accuracy was what SASS is about? It sure is a part of it.

Here is an excerpt from the rules:
Cowboy Action Shooting™ is a combination of historical re-enactment and Saturday morning at the matinee. Participants may choose the style of costume they wish to wear, but all clothing must be typical of the late 19th century, a B western movie, or Western television series. SASS puts a great deal of emphasis on costuming because it adds so much to the uniqueness of our game and helps create a festive, informal atmosphere that supports the friendly, fraternal feeling we encourage in our competitors.

No one is saying their way is the only way, that is, except gamers who keep saying to “go join NCOWS”, “Make your own game” “get a life”. Indeed, it is a fantasy game, and a period game, so play the period way, or at least don’t monopolize a period game with modern tactics.

Posted by Yakima Kid, SASS #28088L (Member # 2251) on March 24, 2004 07:32 PMMarch 24, 2004 07:32 PM:

As an example, I LOVE custom leather and unique guns. I'm willing to bet that I spend TEN TIMES what the average shooter spends on leather and guns. Why? Because I LOVE the stuff. Do I NNED the stuff? Hell no. Will it help me win? Hell no. But, it's what I choose. Pard, shoot what and how you like within the rules, but leave others to do the same.

That’s great. The issue however, is still, simply, that modern tactics should not control a period sport.

Posted by SGT. QUINCANNON, SASS #32999 (Member # 4085) on March 24, 2004 07:37 PMMarch 24, 2004 07:37 PM:

I have a confession to make... I am not a very good shooter. I rarely clean a stage- in fact, I've never shot a clean match. My weak eyes make it fairly hard for me to aquire a consistant sight picture (that's my story and I'm sticking to it!!! ). My interest in SASS is certainly NOT dependent on winning, or even finishing in the top half. If my picture ever shows up in the Cowboy Chronicle, it will probably be in the obituary section. I like this activity because it allows me to shoot the guns of my childhood heroes, and to associate with like-minded people who share an interest in the Old West and the weaponry and clothing thereof. The ins and outs of who is the top shooter, what mods are legal, so-called "mouse phart loads, et cetera, are not even on my radar screen. While 90% or more of SASS shooters are better than me at ringing the steel, I doubt if many have more fun than I. 'Nuff said.

Your view of SASS is great, but realize that others, me included, simply believe that modern tactics should not control a period sport. When friendship and winning depend on bowing to those who want it their way (gamers), there is certainly a problem.

Posted by Bison Bud (Member # 7838) on March 24, 2004 08:15 PMMarch 24, 2004 08:15 PM:

Wow! I nearly decided to stay off of this thread, but I would like to make one important point! At least for me, the best part about SASS/CAS and the secret to it's success and popularity is that it brings us all together with the common ground of the shooting itself. All the different SASS catagories allow us all to make our own choices and participate at whatever level we feel comfortable. Therefore, allowing us all to shoot the same match regardless of the choices we make. I see that as a really good thing and frankly, find it a bit disturbing that so many don't seem to see this as a positive virtue of the game. All in all, it still appears to me that the actual rub here is that some of those who choose to participate in the slower catagories can't seem to get past the fact that they probably will never be the overall winner. I think maybe Lone Yankee said it best on another similar thread where he stated that he does not feel that he was beaten by someone that shot with a two handed hold. I think maybe that's a very healthy approach to the situation. However, we all still shoot the same course of fire, therefore, someone will indeed be the fastest and that will never change! Deal with it as best you can, just get out there and shoot with the rest of us, because that's what our sport is really all about. Good luck and good shooting to all. Adios

Bison Bud, I disagree in that being together on common ground isn’t what’s really happening. It’s more than the shooting, it’s The Spirit of the Game. Overall allows one choice if you want to win: shoot IPSC style; not much of a choice. Someone will still be the fastest, and someone will still win, and that’s great! All the more reason why modern tactics should not control a period sport.

Posted by T. G. Reaper, SASS# 25972 (Member # 1175) on March 24, 2004 09:41 PMMarch 24, 2004 09:41 PM:

Damn, Evil Roy!!! You start posting replies like that people are going to start confusing you with me! Good for you for calling a spade a spade. You do not deserve that type of personal attack. Posts like this are the reason why I try to stay off of the Wire. But this guy is just another keyboard commando with an axe to grind and an opinion. He's not worth tarninshing your great reputation. Of course, if he were talking about ME on the other hand, I'd have to have a little prayer meeting with him to discuss his bad manners.

Hi Reaper! “Calling a spade a spade aye? What posts keep you off the wire, just opinions you can’t intelligently argue against or the folks throwing insults and curse words? Discuss my bad manners? Really? So the bad words and name calling don’t bother you from others? Instead of being such a sycophant why don’t you discuss the issue: modern tactics should not control a period sport.

Posted by Sodbuster Oliver Bend, SASS #46387 (Member # 17068) on March 24, 2004 09:52 PMMarch 24, 2004 09:52 PM:

Just so you know Evil Roy, Wicked Felina and Holey Terror are as good a people as it gets and if any one doesn't believe it then too d--n bad. Just remember "united we stand divided we fall" sound familiar?

Come on man, stop kissing up, it’s embarrassing already! Nobody has expressed dislike for those people. We’re talking about tactics and methods here. Let’s not drag names into this! As far as being united, only when we agree with you right? Yeah, you’re friendly! Modern tactics should not dominate a period game.

Posted by Aesop Mysleeve SASS #41655 (Member # 13455) on March 25, 2004 04:31 AMMarch 25, 2004 04:31 AM:

Keyboard Commando!

Funny aye! You must watch Beevis & Butthead a lot. “Duh,uh uh he said ball!” Since you have forgotten the issue, here’s a reminder: Why bring anachronistic tactics to a period Game?

I thoroughly enjoy CAS and meeting so many nice people with similar likes. I am interested in the fun, the dressing up, and even in the competition. I am also interested in preserving this game as it was meant to be played. So I’ll explain why I wrote that article.

Though not a reenactment, CAS is a period pastime, and a fantasy sport. We can all agree on that, right? What I don’t get is why anyone would come into a period/fantasy sport to compete with tactics and methods that are completely anachronistic. There’s IPSC, with its competition first ideology. Though this is fine for that game, anyone who’s remotely familiar with IPSC knows that the loophole jumping, the “if it’s not mentioned in the rules its legal” attitude, and the “pro” aspect, have negatively affected that sport. I see this is happening in SASS, and it’s getting worse.

Our sport is being perverted into an IPSC match with costumes. Now we have short stroke kits for some rifles, steel-lined holsters that are almost skeleton holsters, speed straps, minimalist costumes, and other ridiculous perversions of the Spirit of the Game. I’ve seen photos of “champs” where the only reason you can tell they’re in SASS is ‘cause they’re wearing a Cowboy hat! “Top” players are being sponsored by major companies - including guns with their names on them (even when they used other brands to win). Some of these “champs” are even making their own shooting schools and teaching others how to weasel through the loopholes and further pollute our sport. Wasn’t the whole point of SASS to have a fun sport with no “pro” status and no big prizes?

I’ve been at several events where there’s a major competition and it turns into all out IPSC. The true Spirit of the Game pards have to decide whether to go to modern tactics for a chance of winning, or just shoot the period way and loose. Yet there are still those who have the audacity to call whoever protests a “whiner” or to say “go make your own game.” Talk about shamelessness!

There’s a lot of talk about how popular this sport is, but is popularity worth the price of loosing our purpose? We all want to be friendly, but is it right to keep smiling while those who want to play the game as it was meant to be played are pushed to the side? How honorable is it to come into a period sport, dominate the wins with modern tactics, and then tell others to “just have fun”? It’s pretty outrageous! Would you join a Greco-Roman wrestling club, use modern wrestling techniques, and then call the “purists” whiners for protesting?

We’ve discussed two handed shooting and its authenticity etc. Despite many attempts to use the absence of proof as justification for shooting with two hands and cocking with the weak hand thumb, running around using the Weaver stance, and loading bullets to ridiculously low levels, it just doesn’t fly. Nobody back then shot like that. Nobody back then, whether they shot a .32 or a .45 deliberately used ammunition so underpowered that the bullet could be seen gliding away.

Sure, we use gun carts and safety glasses, and we don’t ride to matches on horseback. But none of those things affect the actual competition. Some use modern powder. I have used modern powder myself, primarily because I had no other way to shoot and am currently working on switching totally to The Holly Black. The game is a period game, we may use some Hollywood ideas, we may romanticize, and that’s fine, but we got into it to play Cowboy. Yeah, the rules don’t cover some things, and we all want as few rules as possible. Well, freedom requires responsibility. I’m sure the dudes who started this had no idea that there would be so many loopholes, or so many who would exploit them. The minimal rules allow people to get involved without being overwhelmed. They allow newcomers to participate and learn, adding to their game, improving their experience and knowledge with each event. I was able to get into SASS primarily because of my good friend Doc Whiplash. He loaned me guns and a rig for my first shoot, even gave me ammo. But I had the respect for The Spirit of the Game to wait until I had at least the right clothes before attending. My first boots were a pair of old pointy cowboy boots, and I sewed some black vinyl into stovepipe tops for them. They were uncomfortable and they were hot, but everybody thought they were real, and, most importantly, it was up to me to play the right way. To say “if it ain’t in the rules it’s ok” is a copout and, in my opinion, unethical at best. Common sense, ethics, and honor should guide us, not the lust to “win”.

So why bring anachronistic tactics to a period game? Isn’t it more honorable to play it how it was meant to be played? Isn’t it more of a challenge? Isn’t it more fun? And if you just have to use modern tactics, isn’t it the honorable thing to do - even if the rules don’t cover it, even if not many are protesting - to insist that you don’t compete against those who play this game to be at least somewhat authentic?

Bisley Joe
SASS 29738

Posted by Easy Rider, SASS# 10407 (Member # 6469) on March 25, 2004 04:54 AMMarch 25, 2004 04:54 AM:

Evil Roy,Great post!Once again you have cut through the crap and gotten right to the heart of the matter.

Oh MAN that’s funny! Don’t forget to wipe your nose. Remember, modern tactics shouldn’t dominate a period game.

Posted by Def Dan Dreager, SASS #54479 (Member # 16416) on March 25, 2004 08:51 AMMarch 25, 2004 08:51 AM:

I would think that a person would check the rules and bylaws of any organization they were thinking about joining and that if they thought they couldn't live with those rules they shouldn't join that particular organization.

EXACTLY! So why come into a period game, control it with modern tactics, and then whine about it when the period shooters protest?

To me it's like the person that builds a house at the end of an airport runway and then whines about the noise and tries the have the airport shutdown. It's the same mentality and I just can't have any respect for people like that.

No, that’s not it. It’s like the guy coming into a boxing ring and wanting to use karate, then getting ticked off because the boxers complain. Modern tactics shouldn’t dominate a period game.

I joined SASS to have something fun to do with my son and I personally don't give a rat's a$$ about gamers, warthogs or if a person shoots with one or two hands. At some point I'll try them all. It's the attitude of the person that started these threads that bothers me. I guess I'm fortunate that this attitude doesn't seem to exist in the people I've shot with.

Well, you should give at least a rat’s rectum about it. The Spirit of the Game is very important. Gee, my attitude bugs you, but not the attitude of the swearing and insulting, telling people to shut up, go away, make their own game… WOW!

Posted by Big Spring Kid, Life Member # 32163 (Member # 7285) on March 25, 2004 09:02 AMMarch 25, 2004 09:02 AM:

Funny thing? I tried the rubber soled boots, the light loads, minimal dress, metal lined holsters, name brand action job and my times changed very little. The shooting school helped some but I have come to the conclusion that if I want to get any better I may have to spend long boring hours practicing.

That is an EXCELLENT observation! PRACTICE makes champions! So why not practice, and play, a period game in a period way? Thanks for a great point pard!!!

Posted by Mike Bastian SASS #9352 L (Member # 11616) on March 25, 2004 08:50 PMMarch 25, 2004 08:50 PM:

There is a book titled "A history of the Colt Revolver" Written by Charles T. Haven and Frank A. Belden. It is a masterpiece that complements any collection. There are at least 2 editions of it that I know of. I own the Second. In it you will find more information than you could possibly need. From concept to patent this book tells you the story of Sam Colt and his creations. Did you know he used to sell some sort of make ya feel good gas? Makes the oxygen bars you see today seem even funnier. But that is a different topic.

In the book you wil also find instruction booklets on the guns he created including the loading, firing and cleaning of the guns. No where that I could find, (granted this book is nearly 700 pages) does it say that the guns were meant to be shot single handed, or two handed. I did however find an interesting account in the book of an article that appeared in the American Rifleman, October 1932 written by Ed McGivern dealing with speed shooting from the draw.
" Using a single action army with no more special work done on it than any frontiersman could have obtained from a good gunsmith achieved the following results" they used an electric and photographic timer of the time. Here are some stats from the book
"Draw and shoot one shot into a man size mark a ten yards, one-fourth to three-fifths of a second. Fanning or slip shooting, using two hands for one gun, five shots covered by a mans hand at ten yards one and one-fifth seconds. The same drawing from the holster before firing one and three-fifths seconds. Mr McGivern states that this shooting takes plenty of practice and a gun with some special work done on it. But if it is possible for him to do it as an interesting experiment and for exhibition purposes, it would seem that some of the men whose lives had depended for years on their ability to shoot quickly and straight would have done nearly as well." Page 150 of A History of the Colt Revolver

Some nice times posted by Mr McGivern.

So here we see an expert of the time, Long before most of us were born, and nearly 50 years before the idea of SASS became a reality, showing how it is possible that 2 handed shooting was done, along with gunsmithing and trying to beat the guy next to ya, (granted that was life and death then not the fun we have today)

So there you go BJ, think it over, did gamesmanship and looking for the edge start in 1980 with SASS or was it way back when these guns first came out. Kinda like the chicken and the egg dilema, no one that I know today was there when that first happened and yet we could sit down and argue the same way this thread has gone. Infact I think I will go start that thread now.

I will be going through the book more throughly tomorrow, just got it unpacked from our move and it has been a few years since I went through it in detail.

MB

[ March 25, 2004, 08:55 PM: Message edited by: Mike Bastian SASS #9352 L ]

Posted by Gold Canyon Kid #43974 (Member # 11280) on March 25, 2004 08:58 PMMarch 25, 2004 08:58 PM:

Hey we voted you off the island, you don't get a departure speech, that's not in the rules.

Posted by Sidekick (Member # 13177) on March 25, 2004 09:14 PMMarch 25, 2004 09:14 PM:

Bisley Joe What is wrong with IPSC? I have never shot an IPSC match so maybe someone with your esteemed intellect could enlighten me. It seems to me that the men and women that participate in IPSC are shooting guns and having fun so whats wrong with that?

Posted by Bison Bud (Member # 7838) on March 25, 2004 09:16 PMMarch 25, 2004 09:16 PM:

Bisley Joe,

I'm trying really hard to see and understand your point of view, but it still seems to elude me! If we were to eliminate recognizing the overall winner, how does fix the problem of "Modern Tactics dominating a Period Game," especially when better than half of all the participants at any given match choose to shoot with the apparently "Modern" two handed hold? You say that it's simple, "Folks win in their catagories". Well, just what is different about your vision over what is now already in place? Folks already win and recieve awards for winning in their catagories. Please explain how also recognizing the overall winner takes anything away from those catagory winners, I really want to know! Frankly, your position on this issue comes off as just plain vindictive in my eyes and that surely isn't the "Cowboy Way." Again, on any given day, someone will be the fastest (nothing can or will ever change that fact) and I firmly believe that the majority of us actually want to know who that is and/or was. I realize that it's not comparing apples to apples, but it just plain doesn't matter to most of us! Even if not officially recognized by SASS, do you really think that folks aren't going to figure out who the overall winner is anyway? I have trouble believing that you are indeed that naive! I probably shouldn't bring this up at all, but one of my personal pet peeves is using the overall scores as the basis of calculation for rank scoring. This does indeed pollute the individual catagories because the number of faster catagory shooters between you and the next shooter in your catagory can and does determine who wins the catagory. Now here is something that we could actually fix and keep the catagories as pure as possible, but that arguement has often been shot down by many of the same folks that feel that there should not be an overall winner. Again, I just don't understand where that comes from and I'd be real interested in your opinion of that matter as well. Anyway, I have tried to debate this issue with an open mind, however, I don't guess I'll ever understand all the apparent angst over there being an overall winner, but I guess that's life! I've said enough. Adios.

Posted by Chicago Steeley SASS 26520 (Member # 6306) on March 25, 2004 09:33 PMMarch 25, 2004 09:33 PM:

This Gent has his opinion and guts enough to print it, give him a break. I personally think the the truth probably lies between both points. I see gamers and I see people that are in it for the authenticity. This year I am going for both, I gots my gamer 32s and I gots my 45 Colts loaded with 37g of BP. Both are a ball. Just relax all, try a decaf...

Posted by BisleyJoe 29738 (Member # 9905) on March 25, 2004 09:40 PMMarch 25, 2004 09:40 PM:

Posted by T. G. Reaper, SASS# 25972 (Member # 1175) on March 25, 2004 08:12 PMMarch 25, 2004 08:12 PM:

Hey Odessa:6'5" and 290! Hmmmm....he's a biggen. Might have to mount his head next to the cape buffalo that made the mistake of tanglin with little ol' 5'7" 160 lb T.G. Busted him right betwixt the eyes at about 15 FEET in full charge in the tall grass. Nothing gets me very excited after that little incident. Not even this dude.....

Reaper, let’s stick to the subject here. You can get all excited and mount all the buffalo you want on your spare time. Then you can hold a little “prayer meeting” with some of your buds here and teach them some manners. Let’s work together! Let’s keep the COWBOY in Cowboy Action Shooting!

Posted by Gold Canyon Kid #43974 (Member # 11280) on March 25, 2004 08:16 PMMarch 25, 2004 08:16 PM:

Dear Bisley Joe, I regret to inform you that many, many of your peers sitting around the cowboy campfire tonight getting ready for a big shoot tomorrow, done voted you off the island. We decided we don't give a hoot (hoot is a nice word for the "s" word) how you feel about it. We decided other things also but concluded with our minds muddied by too many tall cool ones, that they be best unstated in a public forum. Sorry, but that's the breaks. Hope you enjoy shooting with your next new best buddies that want to dress period, shoot period, shoot crapy equipment, shoot one handed and never practice, but still expect to win overall in their matches. Heck, if I'm going to get slammed, I might as well do something to enjoy it.

Awe Kid, no, no! You can’t vote me off gamer island! You’re such a nice and open minded group! I’m so distraught that you don’t give a “hoot” about what I think despite trying to harangue me into silence and all. All those baseless assumptions and accusations are making you look foolish. And your statement about “slammed” is about as hypocritical as you can get. Last time a post like this was up you did the same thing, like a spoiled little boy. Come on, man, haven’t you ANY dignity? Ah well, lie there on Gamer Island, getting slammed on hypocrite beach instead of taking a constructive part in a valid discussion, which is: Modern tactics should not dominate a period game.

Posted by Wild Gene Hickup, SASS #35870 (Member # 5615) on March 25, 2004 08:17 PMMarch 25, 2004 08:17 PM:

Joe, based on you logic, I'd suppose you would like "under God" taken back out of the pledge, after all, that's the way it used to be.

Wild Gene, I think you’ve got hiccups disturbing your thought process. We’re talking about not allowing modern tactics to control a period game.

Posted by T. G. Reaper, SASS# 25972 (Member # 1175) on March 25, 2004 08:24 PMMarch 25, 2004 08:24 PM:

Ok...this is all I have to say about his ENTIRE post....Wild Gene...do you type Kilroy into every reply or is it part of your signature?Just curious.Your pard,TGR

TG, I’m still waiting for something other than silly comments from you pard. Are these the manners you grew up with? Flappin yer yap in a discussion where you neither need nor want to be is a clear sign of a floozy and a buffoon. Then again, you keep proving that anyway. Never mind. But please remember: Modern tactics should not dominate a period game.

Posted by McCandless (Member # 5711) on March 25, 2004 08:42 PMMarch 25, 2004 08:42 PM:

Ok, I've read through this thread, but I still don't understand. What is this "Some of these "champs" are even making their own shooting schools and teaching others how to weasel through the loopholes and further pollute our sport" about?
Now, I shoot Frontiersman, and slowly at that, but I've attended three shooting schools, which were taught by a total of eight "champs". I didn't hear them espouse a single "weasel" point, or teach anything that would pollute the game.
They taught mostly front sight, Front Sight, FRONT SIGHT!! They taught how to prepare yourself and your equipment for a match, they taught and stressed SAFETY!, they taught how to acquire the target faster and shoot smoother, they taught better control of the firearm, they taught how to load a shotgun faster, they taught the importance of proper sleep and nutrition before and during a major match and the importance of staying well hydrated, they taught the need to practice untik certain moves became muscle memory, they taught the need to not have holsters that collapse while you're trying to put a gun in them. They taught all sorts of stuff, but dang it, I didn't learn no weasel stuff, I must have not been listening close enough!
But then you turn around and say the whole point of your writ was to do away with the Overall Winner? The words don't back up that conclusion. You talk about the old days. Lemme remind you that this started as IPSC with cowboy hats and the first match was won by a fellow shooting a blackhawk in .30 carbine, two handed.

Pard, you just don’t want to get it do you? And that’s just it, you don’t want to get it. You keep pretending to give all these points but don’t realize your looking more and more dense with each post. Try reading what I wrote, maybe cover the name so you won’t be prejudiced, or get an interpreter.

I think what you might be looking for is NCOWS. They're a great outfit and may be more to your liking. As for myself, I'm too busy messing with my percussion caps and powder to bother with what other folks are shooting, and I'm having fun doing it. the view from where I sit,McC

Nah, not at all. It’s just that you lost your way and got lost from the IPSC match. Follow the light! Modern tactics should not dominate a period game. Think about these words: Modern vs Period, Cowboy vs IPSC, Common Sense vs Close mindedness. If you try REAL hard, you may just realize that: Modern tactics should not dominate a period game.

Posted by Mike Bastian SASS #9352 L (Member # 11616) on March 25, 2004 08:50 PMMarch 25, 2004 08:50 PM:

There is a book titled "A history of the Colt Revolver" Written by Charles T. Haven and Frank A. Belden. It is a masterpiece that complements any collection. There are at least 2 editions of it that I know of. I own the Second. In it you will find more information than you could possibly need. From concept to patent this book tells you the story of Sam Colt and his creations. Did you know he used to sell some sort of make ya feel good gas? Makes the oxygen bars you see today seem even funnier. But that is a different topic.

In the book you wil also find instruction booklets on the guns he created including the loading, firing and cleaning of the guns. No where that I could find, (granted this book is nearly 700 pages) does it say that the guns were meant to be shot single handed, or two handed. I did however find an interesting account in the book of an article that appeared in the American Rifleman, October 1932 written by Ed McGivern dealing with speed shooting from the draw.
" Using a single action army with no more special work done on it than any frontiersman could have obtained from a good gunsmith achieved the following results" they used an electric and photographic timer of the time. Here are some stats from the book
"Draw and shoot one shot into a man size mark a ten yards, one-fourth to three-fifths of a second. Fanning or slip shooting, using two hands for one gun, five shots covered by a mans hand at ten yards one and one-fifth seconds. The same drawing from the holster before firing one and three-fifths seconds. Mr McGivern states that this shooting takes plenty of practice and a gun with some special work done on it. But if it is possible for him to do it as an interesting experiment and for exhibition purposes, it would seem that some of the men whose lives had depended for years on their ability to shoot quickly and straight would have done nearly as well." Page 150 of A History of the Colt Revolver

Some nice times posted by Mr McGivern.

So here we see an expert of the time, Long before most of us were born, and nearly 50 years before the idea of SASS became a reality, showing how it is possible that 2 handed shooting was done, along with gunsmithing and trying to beat the guy next to ya, (granted that was life and death then not the fun we have today)

So there you go BJ, think it over, did gamesmanship and looking for the edge start in 1980 with SASS or was it way back when these guns first came out. Kinda like the chicken and the egg dilema, no one that I know today was there when that first happened and yet we could sit down and argue the same way this thread has gone. Infact I think I will go start that thread now.

I will be going through the book more throughly tomorrow, just got it unpacked from our move and it has been a few years since I went through it in detail.

You mention 1932, 20th century. Back to the subject: This is a period game, and modern tactics should not dominate a period game (especially when there are supposed to be separate classes.)

Posted by Gold Canyon Kid #43974 (Member # 11280) on March 25, 2004 08:58 PMMarch 25, 2004 08:58 PM:

Hey we voted you off the island, you don't get a departure speech, that's not in the rules.

I can see why your called the Gold Canyon KID. How old are you anyway? If your anything over 13 you should be ashamed. You have neither manners nor self respect nor honor enough to leave a discussion you don’t like. You have the face to tell someone they’re voted out of their own post? Wow dude, you just hit rock bottom and started digging’ hard. Now go drink your milk and go to bed. Modern tactics should not dominate a period game

Sidekick, it’s not so much my intellect as it is your obvious inability to accept facts, and you obvious attempt at disrupting a discussion that is way out of your league. If you have to keep asking that question then I think it best that you switch to Cat in the Hat or maybe phonics cards. Modern tactics should not dominate a period game.

Bison Bud, you are either acting like you don’t get it or are just so set in your ways that you can’t handle a simple idea. You are turning a simple thing into a convoluted mess with 10,000 questions. Wait a few hours, or days, ponder what I ACTUALLY said, and try again.

Posted by Cuts Crooked, SASS #36914 (Member # 6120) on March 25, 2004 09:45 PMMarch 25, 2004 09:45 PM:

quote:

I have stated many times, and quite clearly, that Overall is the problem.

Ok. If that's it in a nutshell we are getting somewhere. (I'm not sure where but we're making progress) That cuts through all of the other side issues that seem to be attached to this debate.

Here's my take on it: You are NOT going to achieve your goal. No matter how hard you try it isn't going to happen. You see SASS is a business, like any other. And an Overall Champion is part and parcel of making the business a success... Just as having multiple catagories is part of the business stratagy. These things draw people, and they draw ADVERTIZERS DOLLARS. One could argue that doing away with the overall champion position wouldn't affect those things, but the truth is that the current circumstances have worked...and at the business level of this game you will find that "don't mess with success" will be the credo of those in management. That's a reality you are going to run into.

At the human leval you will find that folks love an "overall champion" too! It's human nature to admire someone who is at the top of the heap. Regardless of the smaller heaps, they want ONE PERSON to be acknowledged as THE VERY BEST OF THE BEST! Is this a bad thing? I don't think so, it has worked fer us humans for generations. You will find find the occassional exceptions to this aspect of human nature, but as a rule it holds true.

Finally, I'm pretty danged good at this game. I was state champion Frontier Cartridge Duelist last year. Someday, when money and time allows I'm going to take a shot at FCD Champion at EOT. And you know what? I will be very happy with that...and very happy with someone winning Overall too, because the Overall Champion is making it possible for me to compete the way I want too! (actually, I had a TIA earlier this month and only time will tell if I can ever compete duelist style again, but that's a whole other issue)

If I can give you some advise? Stick to the basics of your arguement...Overall Champion! Don't try attcking the issue from a different direction like "Period Correct" or even using a "what's the point" slant to make your case. You will fare better that way. And you will encounter fewer people making huge issues out of the things you are really not as concerned with as much as you are about the overall champion aspect. In short, narrow your focus to dealing with the most important thing you want! Also, take the issue up with your TG and try to get it on the agenda to be voted on. Write to the Wild Bunch and present your case to them too. If none of these things makes any headway, at least you'll know exactly where you stand and why.

(the above is my opinion, and my opinion only, based on my few years of interacting with my fellow man and observations of his general behaviour, colored of course by my own predjudices..and worth exactly what you paid for it)

Good Luck 'Migo!

Posted by Bison Bud (Member # 7838) on March 25, 2004 09:53 PMMarch 25, 2004 09:53 PM:

Well pard, I gave it my best effort, but it appears you not willing to actually debate this subject intelligently. The facts still remain facts and your obviously practicing avoidance behavior by not addressing legitimate questions about your position on the subject, so I'm out of here! The only other thing that I have to say is that the "Good Old Days" are gone, learn to deal with it as best you can. Good luck and good shooting to all. Adios.

Posted by Irish Red O'Toole, #48939 (Member # 13828) on March 25, 2004 10:11 PMMarch 25, 2004 10:11 PM:

Bisley Joe,
We've read ad naseum your views, "modern tactics shouldn’t dominate a period game." Funny how you have not once mentioned the origins of the sport (IPSC with cowboy guns), the views of one of the founders (same), or the fact that the first EOT winner used an adjustable-sighted Blackhawk in .30 Carbine to win.

These FACTS would tend to tell anyone with common sense and logic that their whole thesis is flawed and without merit. If all you can do is go back to your tired old, "modern tactics shouldn’t dominate a period game" argument, then the discussion is over.

I said before that I'd defend your right to have your opinion and that still goes. However, it doesn't change the fact that your dogmatic response and inability to let go this pet peeve go shows the true nature of your character.

Posted by T. G. Reaper, SASS# 25972 (Member # 1175) on March 25, 2004 10:11 PMMarch 25, 2004 10:11 PM:

Tell you what, BJ....

You're a pretty insulting individual. I find you amusing, at best. You question MY intelligence? We'll compare IQ's sometime.

I don't give a rip about your opinion or your ridiculous post. Your comments are divisive and unproductive. You're entitled to think and post what you want. Come up with an intelligent topic and I'll happily discuss it with you.

But you ARE insulting. There's no need for me to have a prayer meeting with my "buds" to discuss their bad manners. They are gentlemen, unlike you.

But I'll make a deal with you. Save any further insults you may have for me for when you see me in person. Then you'll have a choice. Be the gentleman you think you are and act in a gentlemanly way, or insult me to my face.

We'll see how it goes from there...

TGR

Posted by Sodbuster Oliver Bend, SASS #46387 (Member # 17068) on March 25, 2004 10:21 PMMarch 25, 2004 10:21 PM:

I am putting my money on T. G. Reaper.

You really have said it all and it is nice to see there are still some gentleman in the south. Have only met one other shooter as disagreable as BJ. Lucky for us all they are far and few between. Good luck with your day dream BJ. Call the SASS business office and tell them they are all wrong about how they are running their business. Just in case you didn't notice SASS is a for profit organization. Surprise!!!! Call me when you get on the board of directors.

Posted by Sodbuster Oliver Bend, SASS #46387 (Member # 17068) on March 25, 2004 10:23 PMMarch 25, 2004 10:23 PM:

Oh by the way BJ don't ever tell me I am a kiss ass to my face. GET IT.

Posted by Kid Raven (Member # 16756) on March 25, 2004 10:26 PMMarch 25, 2004 10:26 PM:

BJ you want a period game shot in a period manner, get a brace of smooth bore flintlock pistols, and step off 10 paces and let go at someone who is shooting back at you. Now that would be a period game shot in a period manner.

[ March 25, 2004, 10:30 PM: Message edited by: Kid Raven ]

Posted by Jailbird ---Finally Joined--#48,305 (Member # 4430) on March 25, 2004 10:50 PMMarch 25, 2004 10:50 PM:

Bisley Joe ----- Thanks for your respectfull reply. I had hoped to hear more of you -- just not so much
As I said -- I AGREED With Less then 10% of what you posted and I have just read your new very long post.
If you care to reply to this -- I have been "forced" to shoot double duelist by the RULES which I agreed to play by. If I claim Gunfighter on a entry form , then I agree to use the rules as outlined in the SASS handbook. And they state , more or less -- if there is a interuption in the 10 shot 2 handgun string of fire -- then I must shoot 1 revolver from one hand {my choice} then after interuption,draw and fire 2nd revolver with whatever side hand I did not use for the 1st string of fire. There you go -- clear as mud -- I Was Forced.
You did not SAY IPSC sucked - in those words. In your latest post I read that you think SASS/CAS is or will be PERVERTED JUST LIKE IPSC. You think that all top IPSC champions cheated or gamed their way to the top ? AS I said -- you look very Anti-IPSC in writeing for a fellow shooter. BTW -- when and where did you shoot IPSC ? I also do not think that most IPSC shooters are there "to win at all costs". Most of the IPSC shooters I know {100s}, have all said they started IPSC to learn to handle their firearms better in a defenceive situation. Then they discovered the"Game within the Game" and bought race guns,red dot scopes,speed rigs etc.
I have NEVER talked to a single SASSer, that said they started Cowboy shooting so they could do better in a real world shoot out.
Please restate for me how IPSC has had a bad effect on CAS/SASS.
Your point is: that modern tactics should not monopolize a period game. I have seen that in print alot. If you do a search of past Wire posts -- you may find the post I made a few years ago. It was about not being allowed to run on a stage.I was told that I would get a 10sec. penalty for running from one shooting position to another. Is that sorta like your idea of period tactics ? Or did you meen that 2 handed shooting was fine if the shooter did not use their offhand to cock the gun before each shot ?
Or what about if I pull out my shotgun shells as I run/walk to where my shotgun is staged ? Is that a peroid tactic that YOU would say is legal?
I may agree with you about some of the internal mods and pump style shotguns/rifles.
But -- even if I personally disagree with some SASS Rule -- when I pay my enrty fee, I agree to The Rules. I hope when you can , you will let me know why you dis-like IPSC so much and what is peroid tactics that would be legal in a match.
Thanks for the reply --- Jailbird

Posted by Odessa Straight (Member # 12314) on March 25, 2004 11:41 PMMarch 25, 2004 11:41 PM:

Awwwww TGR, ya went and shot that poor littl' water bull? He was prolly just tryin' to get around you to get to the water hole for a cool drink...anyway, there are some here who have been rushed by fire teams firin' AKs and throwin' frags, so sellin' wolf tickets about huntin' tales ain't gonna impress 'em, much. Anyway, I was thinkin about sum other Joe bein' 6'5''...maybe Too Tall Joe?

Well Sidekick and you too, Bisley Joe, I shoot the local IPSC matches. In fact, I'm shootin' a steel challenge kinda match this Saturday. Just like the CAS matches, I shoot IPSC cuz I have fun...usually shootin' a revolver (Webley .45 with BP, sumtimes). I also get to shoot my Colt Python with speed loaders...can't do that in CAS so I do it in IPSC...Sum times I shoot my 1918 model 1911. I surely don't wear spandex nor even wear no ball cap...no optical sights, just steel and walnut kinda pistolas. I'm thinkin that most cowboy shooters who badmouth IPSC have never shot it, cuz there's a wide range of ways ya can shoot it...like there is in our SASS matches. You seem to like repetion, Bisley Joe, so how's 'bout writin' 500 times: "There's a wide range to the way a pilgrim can shoot cowboy within the rules and all of 'em are good."

Posted by Chase N. Crooks (Member # 16412) on March 26, 2004 01:11 AMMarch 26, 2004 01:11 AM:

To all

I can't believe all this over someone opinion. It did make for some good reading. It does make a little sense to have top shooters of each category instead of one overall. If there is an overall shooter shouldn’t they shoot all categories? Kind of like when the PRCA has overall cowboy champ at the NFR. These cowboys have to do more than one event.

I’m just getting started into this CAS thing and I think if you want to trick your guns and gear out for that category go for it as long as it falls into the rules. The only way to make it far across the board would to have a rule like (example) you have to shoot factory 1st gen colts with 5 ½” barrels in 44-40, original 66’s in 44-40 with no modifications, and a original Remington double 12GA with no mods all BP loads with a specific powder, load, and bullet for each weapon.

Now doesn’t that sound like fun? Also it is so very affordable to get into. I’m in the Marine Corps and we get told what we can take into combat. With all the Marines I work with we all have different opinions on what would be the best weapon for combat situations and what we would take with us if we could. We get told what we can and cant shoot. Is this what you want? I understand you want the period sport and it is as long as you come to the shoot in period clothes and shoot period style guns. I could care less who wins what and yes I love to win, but if I don’t because someone with better guns or more practice does who cares. All we can do is shoot our best with what our choice of weapon is, in the category we select and have fun putting lead down range.

I don’t know if this makes and sense to anyone but me and I don’t care. I just felt the need to write something on this since I read the entire post.

I hope all your shots hit steel…….

Chase N. Crooks and having fun doing it.

[ March 26, 2004, 01:13 AM: Message edited by: Chase N. Crooks ]

Posted by Trapdoor Billy (Member # 12012) on March 26, 2004 02:02 AMMarch 26, 2004 02:02 AM:

quote:

Originally posted by Chase N. Crooks:
[QB] To all

I can't believe all this over someone opinion.

B I N G O

With all the threats and threatened ass kickings it sounds like the old political fire.

[ March 26, 2004, 02:36 AM: Message edited by: Trapdoor Billy ]

Posted by Grampaw Willie, SASS No.26996 (Member # 7333) on March 26, 2004 03:06 AMMarch 26, 2004 03:06 AM:

quote:

Originally posted by Trapdoor Billy:

quote:

Originally posted by Chase N. Crooks:
[QB] To all

I can't believe all this over someone opinion.

B I N G O

With all the threats and threatened ass kickings it sounds like the old political fire.

It's a hoot, ain't it?

Trying to force values onto others is called "proselytizing" and us Cowboys don't cotton to it. Nope, not none at all. Someone get a rope and I'll put out a call for the Posse of the Resistance to mount up!!

Posted by Capt. Morgan Rum, SASS #6859 (Member # 14434) on March 26, 2004 03:44 AMMarch 26, 2004 03:44 AM:

BJ,
Just so we understand each other. You are welcome to your opinion. I don't share it.

I intend to use every modern tactic legally available to me within SASS rules to play MY F-A-N-T-A-S-Y version of Cowboy Action Shooting.

Posted by Bubba Outta Carolinas 53761 (Member # 16075) on March 26, 2004 04:47 AMMarch 26, 2004 04:47 AM:

Well,well,well.....You said what you said,and you said what you meant.....NOW YOUR 15 MINUTES IS UP 100%*****Vaya Con Dios*****

Posted by Colt McAllister (Member # 7587) on March 26, 2004 04:53 AMMarch 26, 2004 04:53 AM:

I just can't take it any more. I usualy look at the complaining and bad advice given on the wire as entertainment, but this is just pure stupidity.

Bisley Joe, you come across as the most unhappy sass member I've ever seen and I've seen some pretty misurble SOB's. Do yourself and more importantly us a favor and go to some other sport. You just don't have the personality to be productive to the sport. You are kidding yourself if you think you are having fun. Your responses make you sound thick headed and selfish.

I know I've offended you, but I don't appoligize. If you have passion for a shooting sport and nobody is doing it the way you want to do go make your own sport.

If you think your going to save sass form itself your dead wrong. Nobody wants to be saved we are having too much fun.

As far as getting abused on the wire, the top shooters in this sport take more abuse on the wire and in the chronicle than any other type of shooter.

Now before you respond by trading meaningless threats over the wire, save your time because I won't do it.

Posted by Shoshone Slim, SASS #31347 (Member # 12478) on March 26, 2004 04:58 AMMarch 26, 2004 04:58 AM:

Grampaw Wille wrote:

quote:

Amen Grampaw, the pol. fire, fire lives!!! My grandpa the Rabbi, used to say that if you want to hear how to be a good jew and all the things that you're doing wrong just ask a convert.

Posted by Mike Bastian SASS #9352 L (Member # 11616) on March 26, 2004 06:13 AMMarch 26, 2004 06:13 AM:

Joe,

You missed the point entirely of the quote that I put up earlier. the author plainly stated that

quote:

It would seem that some of the men whose lives had depended on their ability to shoot quickly and straight would have done neatly as well

Can you show me a Colt Single Action Army manual from the period that instructs the shooter to use only one hand? Or two for that matter?

We all play the game at the level we want. Some wear Levis and Brush Popper shirts. Some wear chaps in the heat of the summer. Some shoot duelist some don't. Some go there to compete and be the best, and some of us go there hoping to some day do it too, we all have our fantasies about the sport. Some people trick out their guns and spend loads of as doing so. Some of us shoot stock guns with a little work done by ourselves, not the smithy and love the fact that we can keep up with some of the fastest.

But seein how you are the hands down expert on modern tactics I suppose that none of this really matters to ya. As many of us have said we love this game, and invite all to play it how, where or what they may. If you don't ejoy it go find the NCOWS or start your own branch. Who knows you might actually have a following, you will never know if you don't try.

MB

Posted by JOHNNY SIXGUN #27428 (Member # 7276) on March 26, 2004 06:42 AMMarch 26, 2004 06:42 AM:

I A'INT GOT THE WORDS. HECK I DON'T EVEN KNOW THAT MANY WORDS.
JOHNNY

Posted by Wild Gene Hickup, SASS #35870 (Member # 5615) on March 26, 2004 07:11 AMMarch 26, 2004 07:11 AM:

quote:

Originally posted by BisleyJoe 29738:

Posted by Wild Gene Hickup, SASS #35870 (Member # 5615) on March 25, 2004 08:17 PMMarch 25, 2004 08:17 PM:

Joe, based on you logic, I'd suppose you would like "under God" taken back out of the pledge, after all, that's the way it used to be.

Wild Gene, I think you’ve got hiccups disturbing your thought process. We’re talking about not allowing modern tactics to control a period game.

[/b]

No Joe, we're talking about the same thing. No hiccups here.

The will and intent of the founders is being changed, only this time in reverse. John Adams once said: "Our Constitution was made for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other." Now, bit by bit, a few folks are trying to remove God from our Country.

Well, we told you what the Judge said, and you want to change it. You want to change the game to what your perception of it is, based on your initial understanding, not the intent of the founders. The words "UNDER GOD" were Added to build on the initial strength and belief of our Great Country and are consistent with the intent of our Founding Fathers. You aren't.

Actually, I didn't have to prove my point. You already did it for me.

Why don't you just enjoy the game for what it is, and quit trying to tear apart a great bunch of folks? Play the game you believe it to be, you harm no one by doing that, I'll play my game. That's what is great here, we can both play by the rules, and anyone that does cheat, had better beware.

Take care Joe, Buck, Doc, and the rest of you who have a different opinion than I do. I want you no harm. And Joe, TGR is a heck of a guy, if you fell, he'd help you up, not kick you.

Posted by Lucky Deuce 1951, SASS #35350 (Member # 10638) on March 26, 2004 07:42 AMMarch 26, 2004 07:42 AM:

I read your answer to your detractors on page 3 and it was logical and well said... Unfortunately, it is hard to discuss and change a closed mind. I have noticed that it seems rather than actually discuss rationally and come to some kind of an agreement..the usual tactic is to attack.

Should everyone be able to shoot and have fun..yes...however, last time I checked this is "Cowboy" Action Shooting... Which seems to me that we should be trying to do things the way the people living in the 1800's and in the movies (since there are many who want to re-enact the TV and Movie Characters...yes, I said the terrible "R" word...Other wise why do some dress like Hopalong Cassidy or The Lone Ranger??? They are RE-ENACTING the character.) And yes, I imagine there were a VERY FEW who used the two handed shooting style but as Joe said, for accuracy not as a general way of shooting. And yes, occasionally in the movies someone did use two hands but again they are few and far between.

Is there room for everyone in this sport? Yes, but if so, there needs to be a few minor changes. It seems like anytime someone suggests that there should be more Authenticity they are attacked and told to just shut up and either leave or "just shoot the way you want to and leave us alone"... And they accuse the person of trying to divide or tear apart SASS...

Well Seems to me, it already is divided into different "camps"... For the most part, you have the Duelist or one gun per hand shooters (such as the Gunfighters); the two handed shooters; the Authentic shooters (they are pretty close to the Duelist camp, however some of the Duelists aren't interested in Authenticity); and the "Who cares about Authenticity, I just want to shoot and use anything that will make my times the lowest possible" group (This group is very closely related to the Two handed shooters). There are those who cross over but it seems to me this is pretty much the way things are divided...

There is room for all the above groups..they just can't be lumped into one group. Yes there are "Categories" but still everyone competes against everyone else in the other categories to be Match Winner or Top Shooter.

Am I griping because I am jealous because I can't win..or because of Sour Grapes...NO! I am not griping, or complaining, or anything else. I am stating the way I see things being done. I figure I am lucky just to finish a match let alone win anything. In one post I mentioned that each Category should have a Top Shooter or Winner...an was told that there is...

Well in reading the Chronicle for several years now..I sure don't remember seeing much written about them... Sure the scores MIGHT be posted but thats about all the recognition I have ever seen given. Most of the press is given to the "Top Shooter" or "Match Winner"...which is usually a Traditional Shooter. I was told that if I didn't like this, then stop shooting Frontiersman and shoot Traditional so I could be more competetive... This explains it all..in the person's mind (and it seems a majority of shooter's mind) the only Category that is competetive is Traditional...

I shoot Frontiersman because I don't believe in two handed shooting, and I DON't use a shotgun shell slide...I could cross over to the Classic Cowboy but I like Frontiersman and am in my own way, trying to be as authentic as possible doing it. And I am having fun...

So hang in there Joe... Its hard to discuss with a closed mine and get anything resolved.

[ March 26, 2004, 07:48 AM: Message edited by: Lucky Deuce 1951, SASS #35350 ]

Posted by Sidekick (Member # 13177) on March 26, 2004 07:51 AMMarch 26, 2004 07:51 AM:

Odessa that is what I think IPSC is a bunch of people shooting guns and having fun, sure you don't use tricked out guns or red dot sights but you have fun playing it your way. Sure sounds a lot like cowboy shooting to me.

Posted by Sunset Slim SASS #46179 (Member # 16282) on March 26, 2004 08:19 AMMarch 26, 2004 08:19 AM:

Git up horse...damn yer bones (all thats left) git the hell up I say!! Shore is a windy cuss aint he. Ya know, ah, Will Rogers (one of my many heros) was a self admitted windy cuss himself but always seemed to be able to provide evidence for his opinions...don't see much of that from BJ. Will say one thing tho...if ya don't mind...Kinda funny how a fellas opinion might be one thing while sittin' behind a keyboard and mebbe another while standin' behind a sixshooter.

SS

Posted by Dogleg Bob, SASS #53910 (Member # 16138) on March 26, 2004 08:41 AMMarch 26, 2004 08:41 AM:

Well, I guess I'm gonna put my two cents in, everybody else has.

This all reminds me of a baseball game I went to many years ago. It was Reds against Dodgers in L.A. There was a Reds fan in our section, all done up in hat, tee shirt and banner. He would jump and whoop at every little success on the diamond. Most thought it was amusing, but eventually some bratty teens a few rows back began shouting insults, profanity and even throwing garbage. Then a funny thing happened, the Reds fan was enjoying it. He was getting exactly what he wanted. He began shouting insults and profanity back. He jumped up and began dancing. Of course the inevitable happened, some guy a few rows up got hit with a cup of ice, got P.O.ed and proceeded to slap the bratty teens silly til they all got thrown out. Now the Reds fan was fully within his rights and had a legitimate point of view. That became totally lost, however, when the obnoxious teens and the fan began feeding on each other and spoiling the game for the rest of us.

As to the point that's supposed to be at issue. Where I play, the trophy for overall is no bigger than the one for duelist, which is what I shoot, or frontiersman which is what I'll shoot when I get a different shotgun. I don't even remember the name of the last guy to win it.

Buy the way I've nothing against Reds fans, I'm one.

Dogleg (whose purpose in life if to keep anyone else from having to come in last)

[ March 26, 2004, 08:50 AM: Message edited by: Dogleg Bob, SASS #53910 ]

Posted by Aesop Mysleeve SASS #41655 (Member # 13455) on March 26, 2004 08:51 AMMarch 26, 2004 08:51 AM:

Boys, wait!

IT'S A TRICK!!

It isn't a Dead Horse, IT'S A DEAD TROJAN HORSE!!!

Look, those aren't the legs a'movin', there's someone on the inside, pushing on the carcass to make it move.

Why, that looks like..... Bisley Joe !!!

Leave it be, fellas. Anyone crazy enough to climb inside a dead horse, and wiggle the legs just to get passersby to beat on him, well, there ain't no telling what other foolishness he's apt to get up to.

Put the sticks down, and go back about your business, before anyone catches you doing what you're doing...

[Ed. note: After reading some of the commentary directed back & forth in this thread, and having been chided in the past for my "contentious political discourse and namecalling" for my contributions to the you-know-what Fire, I think a few folks owe some apologies to people...]

[ March 26, 2004, 08:55 AM: Message edited by: Aesop Mysleeve SASS #41655 ]

Posted by Shoshone Slim, SASS #31347 (Member # 12478) on March 26, 2004 09:32 AMMarch 26, 2004 09:32 AM:

Don't hold your breath Aesop, if you or I had done the name callin' that Bisley Schmoe did to start this mess we'd have been banned. Also, can you believe how long this putz's threads have been allowed to go on? Why the Choc-lit cake thread lasted the original post and all it said was, "choc-lit cake". I am amazed.

[ March 26, 2004, 10:46 AM: Message edited by: Shoshone Slim, SASS #31347 ]

Posted by Nasty Newt # 7365 (Member # 93) on March 26, 2004 01:11 PMMarch 26, 2004 01:11 PM:

Lucky Deuce--You seem to admire Bisley Joe and empathize with his plight in trying to influence those with closed minds. Is Bisley Joe's mind any more open than the minds of those who don't agree with him? If so, I can't see it. Please enlighten me. Regards, Nasty Newt

Posted by Odessa Straight (Member # 12314) on March 26, 2004 01:17 PMMarch 26, 2004 01:17 PM:

Heeeeey!!! It's a good thing I came along when I did cuz this thread had sunk down and was 'bout lost...Get on up there, 'ol hoss.

SideKick, yep. that's been my experences with IPSC matches. I can play CowBoy in IPSC, but don't wanna to the point that I slow an IPSC squad (possee) down. The Steel Challenge even allows for SASS shooters...Single action revolvers; two of 'em instead of a reload.

I'm feelin' a tad bit bad about makin' light of TGR's Cape Buff. Truth be known I'm probably more than a littl' bit jealous of his way cool hunt.
TGR once explained sum of his shotgun techniques to me here and I appreciated tha. He shares lots of stuff with us SASS pilgrims...Ya notice that most top guns do that?

Heck, Bisley Joe, we see more eye to eye than not. Get the rules changed and I'll play by 'em. I'd never suggest that you ...get out... leave. No matter what else folks feel you're full of, ya got sand... No tact, but heck..............

Posted by Ono SASS #36753 (Member # 7809) on March 26, 2004 01:24 PMMarch 26, 2004 01:24 PM:

There is only one thing worse than someone that f@rts in church.
That is someone that insists that I think it smells great. If he thinks it smells fine, that is his business, but I can think it sucks no matter what he says.

BJ is entitled to his opinion, but in this country the vote of the many outweigh the vote of the few, or the one. In this case, BJ comes across as a bit of a commie, in my humble opinion. It is his position that the few should dictate to the majority how things should go.

BJ, and others that desire to participate in the game in similar fashion, please do. But, do not insist that I do as well.
ONO

Posted by Double Bit (Member # 7131) on March 26, 2004 02:20 PMMarch 26, 2004 02:20 PM:

Pards
The way I look at it is that SASS, CAS is a big tent! It can accomodate people with diverse ideas about how it ought to be as long as safety and the rules are followed. Of course, thats just my opinion!

Posted by Sixgun Shorty, SASS #35717 (Member # 7467) on March 26, 2004 02:27 PMMarch 26, 2004 02:27 PM:

I disagree with everyone..If you don't all have the same opinion that I do, you should all have yer,er, my head examined.....

Posted by Gold Canyon Kid #43974 (Member # 11280) on March 26, 2004 02:35 PMMarch 26, 2004 02:35 PM:

Sure hope someone from CC and SASS is watching the "debate" they started by publishing the "wonderful" article by BJ. This may be a record in SASS Wire discord unless someone smartly steps in and shuts down this debate like it should have been several pages back. Sure wouldn't want all the SASS projected new members seeing this post and it's responses. Why do the powers in charge allow trolls like BJ to give the sport such a black eye?

Posted by Sixgun Shorty, SASS #35717 (Member # 7467) on March 26, 2004 02:46 PMMarch 26, 2004 02:46 PM:

Weird thing...After all this BS re this beat to death useless,pointless topic, Has Anyone EVER had or heard this kind of heated debate at a real live SASS match? I never have, and I've been to at least 200+ matches of all sorts..Never once have i heard anything like this at a match..ONLY on the Wire....Hmmmmmm......

Posted by Bartholomew(Butch)Cavendish #38152 (Member # 9275) on March 26, 2004 03:08 PMMarch 26, 2004 03:08 PM:

Has I remember it, he serves this up about the same time every year.

[ March 26, 2004, 03:09 PM: Message edited by: Bartholomew(Butch)Cavendish #38152 ]

Posted by Nasty Newt # 7365 (Member # 93) on March 26, 2004 03:16 PMMarch 26, 2004 03:16 PM:

Nope, Sixgun, I never did see a one-handed shooter approach a traditional or modern shooter at a match and proceed to berate him or her about the dishonorable way they play the game. Regards, Nasty Newt

Posted by Black Hills Blacky #21668 (Member # 5006) on March 26, 2004 03:16 PMMarch 26, 2004 03:16 PM:

Gold Canyon Kid,

Bisley Joe is not a troll. I know who he is and have shot with him.

I will not debate the issue of whether I agree or disagree with him because it is pointless with all the previous responses.
I will say this however, he has every right to make a post here as do you.
Especially you!

I have found that I disagree with YOU on many things and I have also viewed your posts as inflammatory.
I let you rant!
That's your right and I didn't want to become embroiled in issues that I thought were for self agrandizement.

Maybe Joe's post is for self gratification also?
Don't know and don't care but when you live in a glass house, DON'T CAST STONES!

T.G.
Every time you have a problem with someone you make veiled threats as to meeting them at a match and seeing who is the better man. Make any Excuse you want but I read it as you mean it.
Grow Up!

Blacky

[ March 26, 2004, 03:22 PM: Message edited by: Black Hills Blacky #21668 ]

Posted by Big Spring Kid, Life Member # 32163 (Member # 7285) on March 26, 2004 03:19 PMMarch 26, 2004 03:19 PM:

Self gratification!!

BSK

Posted by Sunset Slim SASS #46179 (Member # 16282) on March 26, 2004 03:25 PMMarch 26, 2004 03:25 PM:

Shorty, think I said that...just used a few less words.

SS

Posted by Wild Shot #51 (Member # 7739) on March 26, 2004 04:37 PMMarch 26, 2004 04:37 PM:

I haven't looked at this topic for a couple days.

I'd a closed this topic a few pages back if I'd seen some of the less than decorous responses.

I think this post is at the end of its useful rope.

Wild Shot

Thread locked with absolutely no repercussions against those disrupting it-despite asking the moderators to stop the disruption.

Labels: Action, Bisley, CAS, Colt, Cowboy, Evil Roy, Gold Canyon Kid, Joe, Old West, SASS, Shooting, Shoshone Slim, Single Action Shooting Society, Sixgun Shorty

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