What's the Point?
Below is the text of my article, published in the March 2004 edition of The Cowboy Chronicle, page 30, titled What's the Point? along with the replies it had on the internet.
My name and alias was left out due to an error. Though my picture was included, there were some who immediately started launching accusations and negative comments. If you take time to make note of those aliases you will notice the same ones insulting, disrupting, flaming, and otherwise acting like silly pansies.
What’s the point of SASS/CAS?
There has been one major issue in my mind since my first match that I have not heard talked about:
The authenticity/validity of shooting two-handed/slip thumb. It seems ironic that a sport designed to be played while reliving the Western era can only be won on any major scale by using totally modern and anachronistic techniques!
We all agree that we are here to have fun, competing is part of that fun for many. But the WAY in which we have that fun is, above all, in the recreation of the era of The West and its styles. Isn’t the Spirit of the Game to “relive” the Western era? Aren’t we trying to “play cowboy”?
When and where, movie, TV show, written word, or historical documentation, has anyone EVER seen or heard of a pistoleer or ANYBODY for that matter, shooting using two hands and slip thumbing? IT WAS NOT DONE! Those pistols were designed to be shot with ONE hand. The design of the grip: to let the gun roll back in your hand. The profile of the hammer: to place it in a perfect position after that roll, and to facilitate cocking the pistol in a natural, fluid motion as one brings the barrel/sights back on target. Even the Bisley model, mainly a target pistol, which has a different trigger, hammer and grip, was designed for shooting one handed! The grip does not let it roll, so the hammer is lower in order to allow the thumb to access it easily without that roll.
Yes, there was the occasional steadying of the pistol by placing the barrel on the forearm, maybe even by holding the wrist or other hand, but this was for precision shots! Look at any of the illustrations and photos and it’s clear. It is a historical fact that the isosceles stance did not come into use until much much later. In fact, even the 1911 was designed to be shot one handed. (The curved mainspring housing was added to correct the tendency of many soldiers to shoot low. It pushed the grip away from the palm, thus raising the natural “point” of the gun.) Other guns were the same: the Mauser Broom Handle, the Luger, and the Walther P38 for example, all much more advanced than the SAA, and used through WW2!
It doesn’t bother me much on its own, but the fact that the only way anyone has a chance to win a match outright, not to mention a championship, is to shoot two-handed/slip thumb is, in my opinion, a complete perversion of the spirit of the game. Think about it: We are trying to recreate the era and its styles etc. But the only way to win is if you use a method of shooting that was not even thought of yet!
There are other problems as well, like shotgun double shell slides, and steel lined holsters for example. Are we turning into the IPSC crowd? Bending the rules and using any and every little loophole to gain an advantage? It is utterly ridiculous and a complete travesty that those who would shoot and compete using the actual methods of the era are held hostage by the use of obviously modern methods and gear! AGAIN: Is the point of SASS/CAS to “Play Cowboy” or to just find another arena to compete in? If you want to compete and win win win, by all means, go right ahead! BUT DO IT IN A MANNER CONSISTENT WITH THE ERA!
Think about it:
The gunfighter steps out of the saloon, his eyes squinting from the glare of the noon day sun blazing off of the parched street. Hardly has his vision adjusted when a gravelly voice calls his name.
“Smith!”
The gunfighter coolly turns, his eyes immediately finding his opponent.
“You cheated me out ‘a twenty dollars!” The antagonist continues, shifting his weight uneasily at the total lack of response.
Calmly easing back his coat, Smith, a veteran of many gunfights, notices two other men trying to discretely flank him. His eyes move, Cougar-like, between the three men. His hand hovers beside the slicked and polished Colt at his hip: Talons waiting to spring from a lightning quick paw.
There is utter silence now. Even the birds have ceased their singing. Time slows, almost stops. And then, with a grimace of utter hatred, the antagonist reaches for his pistol. But Smith has already drawn, and the hammer of his Colt has already fallen on the bullet that will, in a microsecond, smash through the villain’s muscle and bone and send him reeling into eternity.
There is fire and smoke and the sound of thunder melds with the thud of a dead man falling onto the dirt. But there is no time for respite, and Smith spins about, bullets already whizzing past him like hell spawned demons. He fires again and another man falls dead. Two more volleys. Smoke and fire billow from his pistol, and the last of his would be killers crumples to the ground, lifeless.
Now, do you picture such a scene with the hero firing like a modern shooter, using both his hands and slip-thumbing? Or, do you picture him reeling about like an enraged predator, his body balancing, catlike, the pistol bucking and roaring in one hand? And that is my point! Isn’t that what we see ourselves doing? Reliving the past? Doing it not like modern competitors, but as Wyatt Earp or Wild Bill, or John Wayne did it! As Cowboys!
Red River Drifter #2680
I agree with some of what you are saying, but were't you here for the last 56 times this was drug thru the fire?
Marshal McGavin
SASS Wire Vet
Member # 9055
It is a no-win situation. The consensus seems to be that as long as the rules ain't being broken, all's fair.
Sixgun Shorty, SASS#35717
So BJ, what IS the point of that lengthy diatribe?
Well, obviously the point of what you call my “lengthy diatribe” eludes you. Therefore, have a cup of something and enjoy the day!
Lone Yankee, SASS # 42663
Mebbie we outa have a WEAVER STANCE Class (just kidding). I do believe there should not be an overall winner named, just class winners.
Hey, I was thinking of a “Gamer Class”, that would allow for EVERY possible loophole to be taken advantage of. This way we can eventually even have shorts worn in matches!
But seriously, I agree with what you said about class winners. It was a great point!
Jax Orebetter #21688
Actually, In that last example you use, I see him holding the gun with one hand and using his off hand to slap the hammer back each time. You know, like at the end of Quigley Down Under? (just watched it again last night )
Ah yes, Quigley! Great flick! I can see the fanning too! Like Doc in Tombstone at the OK Corral! That many shots into one body have GOTTA hurt!
Boston John Doucette, 34253L
... read the thread title aloud...
OK, lets try it together! Ready?
WHAT”S THE POINT?
Did you mean in trying to communicate with you? Obviously the point is to spark some intelligent discussion about why we do this, and whether we are losing the whole idea to pure competition. Try reading the post aloud, and maybe, you can come up with something other than nay saying. For goodness sake, is it a CRIME to express opinions now?
Buffalo Dick, SASS #12880
While you are at it, are there any other choices you'd like to eliminate to conform the whole sport, and everyone who wishes to participate in it, to YOUR notion of how it should be? How about caliber, brand and model of gun, footwear, "big hats" or holster design, acceptable shotguns etc. etc.? Never mind that the shooting style you want to eliminate constitutes the single largest category at essentially every match.
How about you play your way and the rest of us ours?
Best regards, Buffalo.
Speaking of choices, that is one of my points! If you want to compete to win a big match, you have NO CHOICE but to shoot two handed slip thumb. That is not only ridiculous, but a total perversion of the whole point of SASS/CAS. Is it COWBOY Action Shooting, or should we just call it AS? As far as notions go, it is of many others as well, many of which probably don’t speak up after seeing the resistance. It is not my intention to cause strife, but it sure isn’t my intention to be silenced when I have a valid opinion.
Allowing obviously modern accoutrements and tactics, especially when they give an unfair advantage over doing it authentically is a travesty and a distortion of our sport. Caliber is not the problem, but loading a bullet you can see gliding down range is. People did not defend themselves with barely charged rounds, and so we shouldn’t shoot with them. That is, unless we replace our villain and buffalo shaped targets with nice little bull’s-eyes. Model of gun? Anything shot then should be allowed. I understand that it’s the SINGLE Action Shooting Society, so some guns may not be allowed. However, it would make more sense to allow double actions of the era than two handed slip thumb! AND the gamers would be REAL happy!
Footwear? Of course it matters! Will we allow sneakers as long as they are brown, or black, or maybe they’ll have a nice moccasin-like cover! Hats? I remember hearing you HAVE to wear one. If it’s a big hat or small, so long as it is era correct. Hats don’t usually add any unfair advantage, unless some gamer somewhere has figured out how to add optical sights so he can see the invisible laser in his Pistol!
Holster design? Steel lined holsters are not too period correct. As far as “buscaderos” , well, SASS was started including the old tv/movie westerns too…
And shotguns! Hey, you have to load ‘97s with just two rounds! Why are we limited to handicapping a period firearm because it holds more than two rounds, but we disenfranchise those who would be authentic by allowing modern two handed slip thumb shooting? And I shoot, AND PREFER, a mule eared side by side!
“How about you play your way and the rest of us ours?”
Fine, lets eliminate the overall winner category. Then you can play your way and we can play ours fairly, and ethically.
My Ammi
SASS Wire Vet
Member # 13270
BJ, I stopped reading when I got to the part about "even the birds ceased their singing." What birds? How many were there? Ain't never seen no pictures of birds watching a showdown in the Old West. Not in books from the era, not in movies, not on TV. Just doesn't seem authentic to me.
Birds aren’t authentic? Have you been watching Blade Runner too much? Do you really think I meant that the birds were actually watching the showdown? It’s part of storytelling, to convey tension, etc. I remember plenty of movies etc. that portray a sudden silence during a tense moment. Ah well, I guess that’s all you have to give regarding an important subject.
Don’t stop reading though, it cheats you out of learning something, or at least enjoying yourself.
Carolina Lucky SASS # 30020
SASS Wire Vet
Member # 12909
BJ,
It seems we boil down to two groups. One group looks at this sport as a chance for friendly competition, and the other group wants to be more "period correct". My reply will be directed toward what you seem to be espousing, "period correct".
Along with the single handed grip, you will have to adopt several other practices, or your argument will end up being nothing more than "whining about losing". You are probably right about the one handed grip, but you must also include the fact that few cowboys, and almost no townies went around armed. If you are shooting as a cowboy, you will be required to use one of the three choices listed below when the buzzer goes off.
1. Run to the chuck wagon to get your gun and holster.
2. Run to the bunkhouse to get your gun and holster.
3. Run to your horse to get your gun and holster.
If you are shooting as a townie, you may have a small caliber pistol in one of your pockets.
While there were undoubtibly some cowboys with 4 guns to play with, they were so few as to not count. When you play this game you must pick a maximum of 2 guns. They may be in any two combinations, but you are limited to two. This is a GENEROUS RULE.
(At least one gun should be in poor working condition.)
You will be limited to a maximum of two stages. THIS IS ALSO A GENEROUS RULE. What cowboys had the money for a lot of ammo.
If you approve my rules, I will approve yours. We will probably have about 6 of us left shooting.
Carolina Lucky
Hey Carolina Lucky, I know your point is to not have too many rules, but come on now! Lets use our common sense here! I am speaking about unfair advantage using modern tactics. And who says most cowboys were unarmed? A primary reason for a gun was for rattlers. Wouldn’t do you much good if that gun was in the chuck wagon now would it! Besides, we are reenacting moments of combat. Do you not stage your weapons before your turn? I remember PLENTY of times having to run for the shotgun and rifle in stages!
And as far as “friendly competition”, it doesn’t seem too friendly to adopt modern tactics that disenfranchise those who are being era correct and then just say “take it or leave it!”. THAT sounds like real whining to me!
Bubbles LaRue, SASS 30056
My point is to hit the targets.
You have a pointless point.
Bubbles LaRue
Well Bubbles LaRue, if YOUR point is to hit the targets above all else, maybe IPSC is your game. I figured we were here to RELIVE the era of the OLD WEST, not to be posers. If my point is pointless to you then it was a point well made. Thanks for the intellectual, and open minded, conversation.
Lucky Deuce 1951
Having recently taken a vow/New Years Resolution not to put my 2 cents in on subjects such as this...Guess I will break it... I agree totally with Bisley... HOWEVER... That is MY personaly opinion and as far as I am concerned I will never...guess I should say rarely since one should never say never... use the two handed grip and thumb fanning, BUT if others want to, that is thier business.
I know I cannot compete with the thumb fanners as far as speed so I am content to competing against my own times and those using my style of shooting (Duelist) and others in my category (Frontiersmen). As has been said before, Shooting with two hands and thumb fanning is LEGAL as far as the rules goes. True it has little to do with anything involving the 1800's but it is still legal.
Those of us who are more "Purist" need to "get over it"... We can't change the status quo and shouldn't, we are getting to many new rules, categories, and changes already. All I can say is realize that there are two "classes" (I am not referring to Categories here) of shooters in SASS... 1. The two handed, thumb fanning, balls to the wall competition types and 2. The "lets do it the way they did it back then" competition types. Both want to shoot to the best of thier abilities and get the best score, and hopefully have fun doing it, they just do it in different ways. Neither group will ever change the way the other thinks so why try... If you want to shoot two handed then do it... if you want to go for style and shoot the way you think they did in the 1800's then do it... You are never going to please everyone so you have to please yourself... Lead by example...
Big Hext Finnigan, SASS #37671
The point of SASS is fun. Why are some bound and determined to exclude some of the shooters who have helped grow our sport? Does it really matter to you BJ, or anyone how somebody else shoots? Make yourself the perfect example of the sport and let others see the perfection. They'll follow if they agree.
Adios,
You ask about excluding people? That is PRECISELY my point! Those who shoot to be authentic, to be Cowboys in COWBOY Action Shooting, are the ones being excluded from winning any serious matches unless they stop shooting in the authentic manner and adopt modern tactics! Yes, it DOES matter to me when I don’t have a prayer of winning if I shoot those guns how they were shot in that era! It matters to me that the only ones who will win are the ones shooting like it was an IPSC match! Think about it Finnigan! If the point of SASS is fun, as it should be, then why do so many decide to cast aside the method of shooting we KNOW is authentic, and concentrate on using modern techniques?? I’m not saying that they should be barred from SASS, I’m saying that they shouldn’t be allowed to control the sport. And, by the way, many of those shooters who have “helped grow our sport”, who are in it just for “fun”, are the ones accepting endorsements etc. as if they were professionals. I see what you mean by making myself the perfect example, but we can’t just accept certain things as they are all the time and wait for someone to change it for us. Are we subjects of these folks, that we must have THEIR approval?
We all like winning and nobody “likes” losing. The difference is that we accept losing when the field is fair, not when it is so blatantly and unashamedly slanted!
Carolina Lucky SASS # 30020
SASS Wire Vet
Member # 12909
posted January 12, 2003 11:34 AM
BJ,
You weren't doing too bad defending your position, but you just just sank to a rather low level in attacking those who differ with your view.
This is truly funny. I make a point, a credible point, and I have several responding with sarcastic and negative comments. I defend my view and am accused of “attacking those who differ with my view”! I never said to eliminate any style, I only said that it was wrong to allow one style, the modern tactics, to rule supreme over a period pastime. Obviously there are folks who’d hate to play on a level field. It is becoming clear just who the whiners really are! A good thing!
Boston John Doucette, 34253L
SASS Wire Vet
Member # 5932
posted January 12, 2003 12:20 PM
HEY! If you don't like the rules, go play somewhere else! Start your own game with your own rules... anyone can!
I knew when I entered this sport that I'd never be a winner on the scale of State and National champions.
I don't care that I don't shoot on their level, and they don't care that they're not as good looking as I am. THIS IS JUST A GAME!
A GAME!
It's for our AMUSEMENT!
I would suggest to some that when it stops being an AMUSING GAME and becomes an emotionally consumptive fixation, it's time to find another hobby.
Hope Anna Prayer, SASS # 42555
SASS Wire Newcomer
Member # 10432
Whose to say that back in the 1800s they didn't use the two-handed method, at least some may have. All we have ever seen is Hollywoods version of the old west. It really didn't matter back then how you got the job done as long as you succeeded. If you didn't you were history. We think back shooters or shooting from ambush isn't the cowboy way but it happened more often than not and not always by the bad guy. I think we have a glorified romanticized idea many times of what it was like back then.
We all know that they DEFINITELY did NOT shoot two-handed/slip-thumb in the 1800s. Come on now! And, again, the point is not to eliminate anyone, but to make it equal so that the modern tactics don’t ruin our sport! If we are willing to accept that only those who shoot modern will win, then the sport is doomed to the IPSC mentality! If it’s “just a game” then why shoot like IPSC and not traditionally? And even more importantly, why get so upset at the suggestion to allow equal opportunity, especially to those who would be authentic? Why are we who want a level field reminded that this is supposed to be a fun and amusing game, while those who are doing any “legal” thing to win, unethical or not, are so adamantly defended? Is it fear? Kissing up? Misunderstanding?
I doubt very much that SASS was started with the intention that these tactics would become so prevalent. There are obviously some who would hate to see a Duelist have the same chance at winning as a modernist. Any attempt to bring this to light will no doubt continue to attract sarcasm, cries of “make you own game” and accusations of “whining”. But it seems much like an “in-crowd” afraid of loosing its monopoly.
Old Stray
SASS Wire Vet
Member # 13696
Bisley Joe, think they have a new catagory now for the Classic Cowboy that sounds like you will be on a fair playing field with they way you shoot . Didn't read all the replies so might not have all the info. But this should give you an oportunity to win that catagory. If you were talkin the overall.
Think you will have to start a new shooting game and have the rules as you were talkin about. This sport is to far along to change it now. Somethin to think about though.
The Castilian
SASS Wire Vet
Member # 2330
posted January 12, 2003 09:00 PM
Yo...
BisleyJoe, You are doing an excellant job defending your post. Amazing how folks seem to try to read into things and post their complaints about stuff you never said. Its easy to see who all shoots 2 handed out of these replies.
My hats off to ya. Stand your ground, if they dont like your post, maybe they shouldnt keep reading it over and over and complaining about it. I bid you a good night...
Yeehaw.....
bisleyjoe
SASS Wire Vet
Member # 9905
posted January 12, 2003 09:07 PM
Sir Castilian, thanks to thee! Thou hast poured upon mine head a most refreshing comment! I found it rather bizarre how so many things were commented on that were never said!
Thank you for your kind words!
"Through the bludgeoning of fate my head is bloodied, but unbowed!"
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So far I’ve heard that:
“We need not be so high handed as to exclude all those who differ in our interpretation of a fantasy sport…”
But I NEVER ONCE mentioned excluding ANYONE. In fact, I have made it clear on several occasions here that excluding anyone had NOTHING to do with it.
“The fun is in the choice.”
But there really is no choice if you want to compete. If you believe in choices, then why does everyone have only the choice of modern if they want to seriously compete?
“I just figured if you wanted to tell us which legal shooting style was okay, you'd probably want to tell us which legal footwear, leather or hat style was okay as well…”
But I made it clear that my point was only based on keeping it level. I never even suggested telling ANYONE how to shoot or not shoot.
“The folks that are over-all match winners are pure fast./ They are fast because they have some talent and worked, worked, worked, and then worked some more. You and I aren't going to beat them even if they outlawed the two hand grip and slip hammering and instituted some arbitrary minimum velocity.”
But I never mentioned outlawing anything. AND, I’d rather decide if I can beat someone or not by actually taking them on, not by bowing at their accomplishments.
“Your passion is getting a little tiring.”
Excuse me for expressing my opinion on a subject that you are not forced to debate but choose to, and thus are being wearied by.
“Your position that two handed shooting is unfair is an opinion…”
I never said that two handed shooting was unfair in and of itself, only that it’s monopolizing of the game is. And as far as this being my opinion, well, yes it is. And?
“And don't talk about small cartridges. Most of my family's heirloom guns are in 32-20.”
I can’t recall ever knocking small calibers. In fact, here is what I said regarding calibers, copied and pasted, from my post: [Caliber is not the problem, but loading a bullet you can see gliding down range is.]
“Scottish golfers used only one or two clubs, so are modern players cheaters? ”
The same way that modern golfers play modern golf, modern shooters shoot in modern shooting matches. If there was an organization of old style golfers that wanted to recreate the feel of the old ways, then the use of modern methods/an array of clubs would fall under the same dilemma.
Someone even said: “…PLEASE don't tell me how to enjoy myself.”
When did I tell you how to enjoy yourself?
There have been comments about having to give up jobs, and having to take a wagon to a match, getting shirts with collars, not wearing suspenders, etc. etc. etc.
And finally, someone asked me:
“Do you ever stop?”
Should I stop? Is that the CAS way? Agree or shut up? Am I not receiving enough of your particular approval?
None of these responses look at my point with any rationality, but instead distort and even manufacture what I have said. It is clear, SO CLEAR, that so many are blinded by their own passion. This was a post to discuss what I, and many others, consider to be a valid issue. Many don’t speak of it, true. But a major reason they stay silent is to “keep the peace.” You see, it has become obvious that anyone with a different opinion will be harangued and vilified by certain folks who, though well meaning, are way too blinded by their obsession and, at times selfishness, to see a different point of view.
Here is what I said:
“It seems ironic that a sport designed to be played while reliving the Western era can only be won on any major scale by using totally modern and anachronistic techniques!”
“It doesn’t bother me much on its own, but the fact that the only way anyone has a chance to win a match outright, not to mention a championship is to shoot two-handed/slip thumb is, in my opinion, a complete perversion of the spirit of the game. Think about it: We are trying to recreate the era and its styles etc. But the only way to win is if you use a method of shooting that was not even thought of yet!”
WHERE did I suggest excluding anyone? Or telling anyone how to or not to shoot? Where did I tell you how to have fun?
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I was not aware that caps equals yelling on the wire. Never intended to yell, just stress certain areas!
“It is hard to accept your claim that you are not trying to exclude/do away with two handed shooting…”
I don’t see why, unless folks are reading into my post instead of just reading it.
“You just rail against the monopoly that the fastest shooting style tends to hold in a time/speed based game...”
SASS is supposed to be a FUN based game, where we play at being “cowboys”, with many targets that go “clang”/make shooters smile. Speed and timing are not the main purpose of SASS. Not that competing is wrong! It isn’t very cowboy like to allow modern tactics to control the winnings!
It's hard to fathom what you really want - most of the time you are complaining that Duellists can't win Matches Overall... yet at another point you agree that "Overall Winner" should be done away with... If you don't want the Overall Winner recognised in the first place, why should you care whether a Duellist (or any class for that matter) is able to achieve that position?(Which, apparently, you don't want recognised anyway?) Beats me.
It’s simple, once one stops reading into things. For example: Duelists can’t win overall against the modern method. Therefore, “overall” is neither fair nor sensible (notice everyone that I am not saying to eliminate modern!). This leads to having another system, like winning in one’s particular style.
And in that most recent post we find that you ARE shooting Smokeless... I will be MOST interested to hear your justification for that... Noone really knows if two-hand holds were used in the "Old West" but we can be ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that smokeless was NOT. Care to explain why it's OK to not "BE CONSISTENT WITH THE ERA" when it comes to propellant??? Hmmmmm????
My “justification” for shooting smokeless is simple. I was able to get into SASS solely due to the generosity of my very good friend Doc Whiplash. Since he reloads smokeless, and since it is nearly always with his reloads that I shoot, I shoot smokeless. I have not been able, until very recently, to get my black powder stuff (thanks again to Doc!) You see, financially it is easier for many to shoot smokeless. Regardless of the gun you shoot however, be it an original Colt or a Uberti or a Ruger, you can shoot it any which way.
You mention the soccer player in American football complaining about how it should be done. You make my point quite well. One sport trying to do it their way in another. Much like the IPSC type modern tactics being incorporated into SASS, and then the whining when someone suggests an equal field.
Smokeless powder is allowed for much the same reason as Rugers and Ubertis: It is much more financially practical. AND, of course, this is not a reenactment group per se. We are trying to have fun. It’s just a matter of making it easier for folks.
When you figure Modern and 49'er, the two handed style of shooting is more prevalent than all other categories combined... and then some. It will not be discontinued.
And I ask yet again, WHEN & WHERE did I EVER mention discontinuing ANY style?
End of Trail is the major SASS/CAS event. To have only the two handed shooters able to win overall is simply against the whole idea of playing at cowboy, and a sacrifice of the traditionalist shooter to the god of prizes and pure competition.
Fanning would be nice, but alas, safety makes cowards of us all!
Okay I am new to the sport and I just have to say that if the only way to shoot SASS/CAS was one handed I never would have joined. If you think that shooting one handed is fair and true to COWBOY shooting....then stick to Duelist and leave the rest of us alone.
Where did I say that one handed should be the “only” way? Read man, read! Don’t read INTO it, just read! And, by the way, if you want to be left alone, don’t speak out so loudly!
Unbelievable!!!!!!!!!
bisleyjoe, for all his demands for folk to be "CONSISTENT WITH THE ERA", shoots SMOKELESS!
Sorry Mate, but that just plain blows your argument out of the water... if YOU can't live up to your demands, why should anyone else?
Well, as I remember, my point (not demand) was to level the field, not to nit pick at every possible point. As I said earlier (in all fairness after you posted this) it was a financial necessity. Shooting smokeless is much easier for beginners, two handed is not. And you know very well what I mean. Let’s not resort to sophomoric tactics now!
I DON'T GIVE TWO FARTS IN A WHIRLWIND WHAT YA SHOOT AS LONG AS IT IS SAFE AND I HAVE FUN
Well there, that’s just fine. But whether it’s a single fart, or a plurality of them, that swirl within that whirlwind, I do care, and so do many others. It’s about being fair dude!
If the hammer of that SAA fell on the bullet instead of the primer of the cartridge then that pilgrim needs to work on his loadin' technique...lots. Musta taken mucho resolve to cram that round in bassasswards like that.
Well, “bullet” is often used to mean the whole cartridge. It’s called artistic license. A hammer hitting the bullet is much easier to identify to the majority than saying “primer”. I would’ve thought that was kind of obvious. Ah well! And, by the way, you forgot to mention that it’s the firing pin, not the hammer, which hits that primer. That’s artistic license as well.
As far as firing a revolver with the barrel over the forearm, it’s shown in photos of the era. And it’s not nearly as dangerous as cocking that hammer before the gun is clear, but they did it!
“What I really wanna know is why you don't think the old pilgrims [ever] used a two hand grip?”
Copied right from my post: “Yes, there was the occasional steadying of the pistol by placing the barrel on the forearm, maybe even by holding the wrist or other hand, but this was for precision shots!” Again, read, don’t read IN TO!
What's the point of SASS/CAS?....certainly not where you're going with this thread, Pard. SASS is a FANTASY sport and the rule book allows us to choose from a variety of "tools" and costumes.
The point of SASS then is NOT being able to stress my opinion, at least not without false accusations and fabrication of things I supposedly said? SASS is then what YOU believe, and watch out he who says different? You are very quick to point out being able to “choose” how you shoot. Great! So why not be able to choose to choose duelist, or gunfighter, and still have a chance at the big wins?
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I fail to see how the difference in modern and traditional cowboy style shooting has anything to do with IPSC....two totally different diciplines!...Tying to gain support for your opinions" by dragging other shooting disciplines into the mix is ridiculous and wrong.....I think you thought your argument needed a little more umph!!Hence the IPSC remark
The point is in the attitude. IPSC is about the competition first. Nothing wrong with that. SASS is about fun first. The influx of modern shooting styles into SASS, IPSC or otherwise, when they become the sole way one can win, takes away from the whole idea of it. And as far as winning, I want to win, or fail trying, to feel a sense of satisfaction, not for paper or gold.
You yourself pointed out:
“I think the real problem is that IPSC shooters have found out how much FUN this is and have infiltrated your sport.....people don't like winners!.”
Given that you spend most of the post pointing out that two handed shooting is not "consistent with the era" it is no great leap to conclude you want people NOT to shoot in that style...(Sounds like exclusion to me) That's the first problem..
Actually, the first problem is not comprehending what one reads. There is nowhere in my post that mentions exclusion, only leveling the field. That is, if you actually read the entire post BEFORE making a decision.
(OK, you claim that's not what you meant - Fine - but it wasn't just one or two people who read it that way... what does that tell you?)
It tells me that there are an awful lot of folks that are so wrapped up in their own view that they don’t hear another’s. They just decide what they think before they finish.
As far as not posting a solution, do you need people to give you both the problem AND the solution at one time? Whatever happened to figuring it out together?
I have already explained the whole black powder deal. It’s about economics and making it easier for folks. I had no choice until recently. As you well know, I never “demanded” anything, just brought up a point that is valid. It seems that it is not only the words that are elusive!
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My choice to use the term “bullet” was a conscious decision and not a mistake, except in possibly overlooking some of the childish mentalities that would make a big deal out of it. In fact, some people’s attempt at diverting the issue and/or trying to find a way to sophomorically take a jab is about as lame as it can get. When the Lone Ranger gives out that “Silver Bullet”, is he giving someone just the projectile or just the entire cartridge? We all know VERY well that the term “bullet” is used often to describe the entire round. Let’s stick to the issues everybody, and not jab at other things when our argument doesn’t hold water.
I don’t have much trouble celebrating the fastest. It’s the monopoly that keeps out everyone else that bothers me.
“I can't find anywhere in my Shooter's Handbook that coming in #1 at regional or national matches has anything to do with the Spirit Of The Game, or being the reason to participate.”
That’s great! I never said that coming in #1 or last at regional or national matches has anything to do with the Spirit Of The Game either. Apparently “fun” is a term that many think is valid when only THEIR point is made and heard. Try reading my post again, calmly, with an open mind.
“The rules are the same for everyone. What needs leveled?”
As I said so many times before: The ONLY chance you have to win a big match is if you shoot double handed/slip thumb. Not very fair, not very inclusive of everyone having “fun”. Rules have been reviewed and changed before. Just because they are there doesn’t mean we can’t constructively question them.
“You obviously care nothing about authenticity, as you originally espoused, and your post has no merit left. You merely have "copped an attitude" about two handed shooters and were trying to stir the pot. Sorry I wasted my time on your post.”
Well, I guess standing up for oneself is “copping an attitude”. I’m sorry! I didn’t mean to actually defend myself. I guess I should’ve shut my mouth the minute someone disagreed with me. Would you come back to my post if I said I loved you? Don’t regret spending time here! Maybe, just maybe, some sense will sink in after you get over that close mindedness and senseless anger.
“What’s the point of SASS/CAS?
Lets me do what I wanted to do as a little boy, dress up like a cowboy and shoot real guns that go BOOM!”
GREAT! Me too! If that’s as simplistic as you like it, more power to you! I, however, see it a little differently.
Your point is VERY valid. I am only saying that we should level the field. Conjecture or not, we should be having fun and have equal chances at stuff. Again, letting two handed/slip thumb MONOPOLISE the winnings is not right. Notice everyone that I have not said to eliminate any category.
“Way to go BJ...pick on the new guy!!.....”
Hey, you ARE joking right? “Picking” on the new guy? So a new rule is: Don’t anyone dare respond to new guys with a difference of opinion (‘less it ‘s in line with some the rest of us)! I’m sure you would have held back from “the new guy” if his opinion backed up mine. Grow yee up sir! You have just proven that your intention is to harass and discredit anyone who has a different opinion.
I am trying to make a point that helps everyone, not just myself. The cart may be before MY horse, yes, but it would be kind of selfish to worry about it only when I was ready. You know what I’d hear then, “You never brought this up before!””” I don’t want to handicap or omit top gun awards. I NEVER said that. The fact that Top Shooter can realistically only go to those who shoot contrary to the most know method of the era is wrong. Period.
“Three pages into this thread and you have yet to offer a solution for your complaint. How do you propose to level the playing field so that one-handed shooters may win an overall title?”
My intention was to have an intelligent discussion PRECISELY for the reason of coming up with ideas for solutions that would be fair to EVERYONE. If you haven’t noticed, I’ve gotten a few here that have thrown stones into the water and then complained that they got splashed. Thus the need to defend my view (which has been twisted and circumvented in the majority of the responses). And you know that, would I have come up with a specific idea, it then would have turned into “how dare you push your idea!” blab la bla. Hell, they’re ALREADY saying that!
I think maybe there being two top prizes? It’s certainly something WE could figure out as a group. As far as gunfighter, it’s perfectly fine. No need to separate. You are still using one hand on one gun at one time. And, it making everything more complicated as far as order etc. makes it all the more fair.
Labels: Action, Bisley, CAS, Colt, Cowboy, Evil Roy, Gold Canyon Kid, Joe, Old West, SASS, Shooting, Shoshone Slim, Single Action Shooting Society, Sixgun Shorty
posted by Bisley Joe at 10:56 AM
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